November Squad (vs Cyprus & Kazakhstan)

[C4mmy31]

1 hour ago, DAFC. said:

Why was Cooper not in that squad there?

He pulled out injured & was replaced by Findlay

[DAFC.]

3 hours ago, Stellaboz said:

McKenna was awful in Kazakhstan, utterly awful.
 

The whole team was. Means absolutely nothing now and doesn't change the fact McKenna is our best centre-back.

[SpoonTon]

50 minutes ago, WATTOO said:

Personally I don't see much, if any, of a gulf between the top end of the Championship and the bottom to mid end of the Scottish Premiership.

Livingston proved that, Ross County are proving that and even St Mirren managed to avoid the drop last season with pretty much the same if not worse squad than they had in the Championship.

Although there's no doubt that the English Championship is a higher level, it's not quite the enormous gulf that many like to make out, Yes, in terms of transfer fees perhaps, however just because you stick a £20 million figure on someone doesn't make them a better player, it just reflects the market and the amount of cash which is in freeflow.

As for Shankland, it could easily be argued that he's also "far too good" for the level he's playing at, however his own personal circumstances and the fact Dundee Utd are a huge club at this level with aspirations of moving up mean that his stay here is likely to be very short lived, one way or another..........

There is a really quite substantial gap between the majority of the teams that Shankland tests himself against and the teams in the Premiership. And even at that, we should only be considering the very top Scottish Premiership players. 

Sunderland have about half a dozen players that were pretty decent Scottish Premiership players, and they're higher end of League One quality. I think that's around the level that Aberdeen are, for example. The Scottish Championship is certainly no more than English League Two level, and I'm probably being kind there. There are some big clubs that play at that level so that's not any big criticism of the standard, but it's certainly no better than that.

Shankland is too good for the level he's playing at, but I have no idea how that will translate at a higher level. Jason Cummings was too good for this level, Billy McKay scored 17 in 22 games last season at this level, Stevie May was an absolute stand out at this level for a mediocre Hamilton side. There are those like John McGinn and and Robert Snodgrass that came from this level and progressed, others haven't quite so well. The reality is that it's difficult to know how Shankland would get on in the English Championship, for example. I hope he would do well, but I just don't know. 

[DAFC.]

Shankland is a natural. He'll do well wherever he goes IMO. Reminds me of McGinn, in that respect. 

[DAFC.]

Mental that Shankland did well when required against Russia, played well and scored against San Marino, yet he's still getting a lot of flack from Scotland "fans" and certain pundits. Absolute rotters. 

[Stellaboz]

Give me Shankland over McBurnie any day.

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, DAFC. said:

Mental that Shankland did well when required against Russia, played well and scored against San Marino, yet he's still getting a lot of flack from Scotland "fans" and certain pundits. Absolute rotters. 

It's just the usual, some people are never happy unless they're talking people down or actively looking for a negative. Christ knows we've got enough genuine misery without actively attempting to find some............

[Desp]

If everyone was fit and available, I'd pick the following squad;

Goalkeepers

Marshall, McLaughlin, McGillivray.

Defenders

Tierney, Palmer, Robertson, Taylor, Hanley, McKenna, Findlay, Cooper.

Midfielders

McGinn, McGregor, McTominay, Armstrong, Fleck, McLean, Christie, Gilmour, Forrest, Fraser, Snodgrass, Johnston

Stirkers

Burke, Shankland, McBurnie.

[Dunning1874]

17 hours ago, Del_Superwell said:

Callum Paterson back playing again for Cardiff, would imagine he might come into the reckoning for next months games if he does well there, can play both Right back and up front which have been 2 problem positions for us.

Paterson can’t play right back. He’s definitely worth having as an attacking option but should never be anywhere near the defence.

[54_and_counting]

19 hours ago, Gordopolis said:

 

Marshall

McGillivray

McLaughlin

 

McKenna

Souttar

Findlay

Devlin/Bates/Hanley/Cooper

Robertson

Taylor

Tierney

Palmer

 

McTominay

McGregor

Jack

McGinn

Armstrong

Christie

Fraser

Forrest

Burke

 

McBurnie

Fletcher (if we can get him to commit)

Shankland

 

 

Defence:

Get Mulgrew fired into the sea and then the sun.

Quite liking the idea of McKenna and Hanley at the back, though maybe worth persisting with Findlay or Devlin alongside McKenna instead.

Tierney first choice RB, unless we decide to try him and McKenna at CB.

 

Midfield:

Picks itself. Just need them to perform to their club levels.

 

Strikers:

Trying to keep the strikers to genuine strikers. None of this listing Fraser, Forrest etc as strikers pish.

Johnny Russell seems like a good guy and can't fault him for effort, but the whole "deserves a cap for making the effort to turn up" stuff is cringeworthy. He's okay but clearly not the axis of Scotland's near to mid term future attack. Get him in the bin.

Also, I think Griffiths is done at the top level, unfortunately.

 

 

 

 

Fletcher? As in steven fletcher? 

[Ron Aldo]

2 hours ago, Enigma said:

I’d get Billy Gilmour in the squad, especially over another makeweight, Fleck, who will maybe get 3-5 Scotland caps in his career tops, and only if we have an injury crisis at that!

Agreed.

The best national teams have players who have played together from youth level. Recently we've had guys like Gallagher, Cooper, Palmer, Fleck, Cairney, Shinnie, Mackay-Steven and Kevin Mcdonald in and around squad. These guys are all 28+ and have 21 caps between them.

It's now at the stage where even with the so called "experienced" guys, we're getting absolutely pumped. Time to bring through a few of the promising U21s and start actually trying to build a team for the future. It might take a couple of years and we might take a few more pumpings but if we can go forward with a regular squad then we give ourselves a better chance in the long-run. There's no use persisting with some of the guys who clearly haven't been good enough in the past and won't be good enough in the future.

[Jambomo]

2 hours ago, SpoonTon said:

There is a really quite substantial gap between the majority of the teams that Shankland tests himself against and the teams in the Premiership. And even at that, we should only be considering the very top Scottish Premiership players. 

Sunderland have about half a dozen players that were pretty decent Scottish Premiership players, and they're higher end of League One quality. I think that's around the level that Aberdeen are, for example. The Scottish Championship is certainly no more than English League Two level, and I'm probably being kind there. There are some big clubs that play at that level so that's not any big criticism of the standard, but it's certainly no better than that.

Shankland is too good for the level he's playing at, but I have no idea how that will translate at a higher level. Jason Cummings was too good for this level, Billy McKay scored 17 in 22 games last season at this level, Stevie May was an absolute stand out at this level for a mediocre Hamilton side. There are those like John McGinn and and Robert Snodgrass that came from this level and progressed, others haven't quite so well. The reality is that it's difficult to know how Shankland would get on in the English Championship, for example. I hope he would do well, but I just don't know. 

The bottom line is that Shankland came in and did well against both Russia and San Marino. Yeah San Marino aren't the best of opponents but he deserves to keep his place, regardless of the league he is playing in because so far, hes done the job that the team needs him to do. When that stops, then is the time to talk about whether he should/shouldn't be in the squad.

[Marshmallo]

2 hours ago, DAFC. said:

Mental that Shankland did well when required against Russia

I must've missed this. Can you tell me the passages of play where he did well in that game?

[Gordopolis]

55 minutes ago, 54_and_counting said:

Fletcher? As in steven fletcher? 

Yep. A bit desperate as he's 33, not playing at the highest level and isn't really a prolific striker. However, I'd have him in the squad for now as the 'experience' option. I think we're getting a bit rose tinted by saying Fletcher was perfect at bringing others into play. He was alright at it, and alright is better than shite at the moment.

[RobbieD]

19 hours ago, Del_Superwell said:

Callum Paterson back playing again for Cardiff, would imagine he might come into the reckoning for next months games if he does well there, can play both Right back and up front which have been 2 problem positions for us.

Except he’s played both for us under McLeish and was absolutely fucking gash!

His own club manager says he’s not a defender. This idea he can play right back is a myth. He can’t. Seen it in person many a time now. 

[RobbieD]

Just to add to everyone else’s points made (decent suggestions and arguments too lads)

Steven Fletcher is finished. I’d like him back but he’s not coming so we need to move on.

Not convinced by Shankland at all.

100% would have Steven Caulker in. Not bothered that he played for England. He’s better than everyone we have and he is calling us asking for a game. We aren’t chasing him. 

[RobbieD]

4 hours ago, WATTOO said:

 

Although there's no doubt that the English Championship is a higher level, it's not quite the enormous gulf that many like to make out, Yes, in terms of transfer fees perhaps, however just because you stick a £20 million figure on someone doesn't make them a better player, it just reflects the market and the amount of cash which is in freeflow.

Whilst your premise is right, McBurnie is better than Shankland. A lot better!  People need to get the blinkers off when it comes to the pair of them. I’ve seen plenty of the pair of them.  I think Shankland could score in the top league for fun but he hasn’t and doesn’t.  If he ever does, I’ll debate the pair.  I’m still waiting to see Callum McGregor take a decent game for Scotland and nobody is screaming for him to get replaced. Especially for someone at a lower level or even two. 

 

[Richey Edwards]

42 minutes ago, Marshmallo said:

I must've missed this. Can you tell me the passages of play where he did well in that game?

He didn't do much wrong, but then again he didn't get much of an opportunity to do anything right or wrong as we were scudded up the other end of the park.

At the other end of the scale, scoring against San Marino is hardly an accurate measurement of being able to play at that level. 

We could have assembled a team of players from the Junior leagues and still scudded San Marino last night.

5 minutes ago, RobbieD said:

100% would have Steven Caulker in. Not bothered that he played for England. He’s better than everyone we have and he is calling us asking for a game. We aren’t chasing him. 

Our centre backs were absolutely rag dolled and outmuscled in Moscow on Thursday night, and in general have been terrible for a while now. As good as Belgium and Russia are, most of the goals we conceded against them owed a bit more to defensive incompetence than to the quality of the opposition.

It's time to try other options, and Caulker would be better than what we've got right now. If he's playing well, I'd be happy for him to get a chance. 

[capt_oats]

See folk who seem to be trying to start a Caulker hype train...have they actually watched him recently? Specifically when he was being pretty underwhelming for Dundee?

Halkett, Gallagher, Findlay and the like have all been consistently better than him at Premiership level.

Don't get me wrong I'll put my cards on the table and say I've no idea how his form has been since he's moved to Turkey. My knowledge of Turkish football extends to being a Nadir Ciftci stan and no more. While I can't argue Caulker's an absolute unit and he's played with "big" clubs some of the descriptions/expectations here don't really match with his form at Dens.

Him selling the jerseys against us at Dens was the sort of thing that folk would be crucifying Mulgrew for had it happened on Thursday night.

Edited October 16, 2019 by capt_oats

[54_and_counting]

2 hours ago, Gordopolis said:

Yep. A bit desperate as he's 33, not playing at the highest level and isn't really a prolific striker. However, I'd have him in the squad for now as the 'experience' option. I think we're getting a bit rose tinted by saying Fletcher was perfect at bringing others into play. He was alright at it, and alright is better than shite at the moment.

66% of fletchers 9 Scotland goals came against Gibraltar, and arguably at that time he had better midfielders to provide him with the service he needs

As you said he's 33 now, he might be able to hold the ball up (debatable now) but has he the legs to press the opposing defences as everyone knows if scotland dont press high they end up fucking it up defensively 

If anything scotland need two up front to not allow opposing centre halves time to bring the ball out and play it from the back, id go with 352 and play burke and mcburnie up top, have them chase the opposing defenders