November Squad (vs Cyprus & Kazakhstan)

[gonzohiggy]

10 hours ago, Scumjob said:

I posted this in another thread but didn't get much response, feel like centre defence is the main talking point for us so I'll stick it in again.

Lindsay was doing very well before he went to Stoke, it seems to have gone completely tits up there for Nathan Jones so I don't think we should judge Lindsay too harshly yet. I'd be interested to hear if he's on Clarke's radar though as I seen him a fair bit in the Championship for Barnsley and I'd have rated him ahead of that clutch of decent SPL players like Souttar, Devlin, Gallagher, Halkett and Kerr.

I'm a massive believer that you need a solid partnership at the back, most good teams have that and consistency and kuck with injuries is key. Northern Irelands success is built on the Evans-Cathcart partnership.

I also think it's worth a real go to get Caulker on board, he's a step above anyone else we've got especially physically where he is an absolute unit. He would give us a level of presence and experience that we sorely lack. Other than him it's:

Hanley and Mulgrew are bombscares, we know they aren't good enough so for me they're discounted and we commit to a younger partnership with more potential.

McKenna who looks a good prospect and could maybe make the left sided centre back position his own given an injury free run.

Cooper hasn't convinced me yet but I'd not gripe if he got a run alongside McKenna as Leeds and Bielsa aren't mugs and he's a cornerstone for then.

Bates looks another good if raw prospect, a spell abroad will at least have seasoned him but now he is coming back from injury if he doesn't break into the Sheffield Wedneday team and consistently impress in the Championship then he's probably not going to be the regular Bundesliga and Scotland centre back fixture we would like to see him become. Big season for him.

I don't mind the look of Findlay, he's got the physical attributes and I'd have him at the front of the Scottish Premiership queue at the moment.

Souttar is alright but I quietly worry he's still not as good as Berra, could do with testing himself at a higher level.

Halkett, Kerr, Gallagher, Devlin and also Hendry are all solidish Premiership players but shouldn't be playing for Scotland unless they're absolutely tearing the league up. The Premiership is too weak now, solid at that level equates to poor at international level (See SOD as a prime example). McKenna could still fall into this category but I think he's maybe shown enough to be better.

To summarise if everyone is fit I'd like to see the four in the squad be McKenna, Cooper, Bates and Findlay with the first two a likely first choice pairing. We then commit to that pairing for a reasonable spell and give it every chance of bedding in solidly by playing Tierney at RB with Robertson at LB and someone sitting in front to protect them. A massive thing that would help us would be a bit of luck and keeping those 4 injury free for long enough that they can bed in as a back 4.

If Caulker is interested he'd jump into the first XI ahead of one or the other and we can build around his strength. Equally once Jones is sacked at Stoke if Lindsay is into the equation there then he pushes one of Bates or Findlay out the squad.

Thoughts?

I've watched Lindsay a few times and he looks solid, excellent in the air and agressive. He looks extremely slow on the turn (even by Scottish CH standards) and I think that's a big reason he's not been called up to full Scotland squad. 

Right now I think we've got a handful of average centre halves, some with potential to get better, others just average. I think McKenna, souttar, Bates and potentially Porteous can become decent international centre halves but all of them have very clear strengths and weaknesses.

 

[DAFC.]

McKenna is currently our best option at CB. However, I think Palmer has done well to keep his place, so perhaps there is potential to play Robertson LB with Tierney LCB alongside McKenna?

Wouldn't have a problem with calling up Hornby if he's getting games and scoring. Still think Shankland will be first choice at this stage. 

 

[Stellaboz]

McKenna was awful in Kazakhstan, utterly awful.
Bates has massive potential but we need him playing regularly somewhere decent.

Palmer at right back is barely better than O Donnell. I'd have Tierney out there.

[Guest]

11 hours ago, Ludo*1 said:

I realise because I'm a Dee I'll be slated for this opinion, but Shankland reminds me of Jordan Rhodes in style. Hopefully for Scotland's sake he can produce more.

He's nothing like Rhodes, I've watched him week in and week out for two years and the guy has a huge amount to his game.

He'll drop into midfield if need be, he's got an excellent touch, he's a good passer of the ball and he'll run all day for the team. He also very rarely gets frustrated and he's excellent at holding off defenders, Yes, he's renowned for his goalscoring but he's much much more than a penalty box style predator........

[SpoonTon]

19 minutes ago, WATTOO said:

He's nothing like Rhodes, I've watched him week in and week out for two years and the guy has a huge amount to his game.

He'll drop into midfield if need be, he's got an excellent touch, he's a good passer of the ball and he'll run all day for the team. He also very rarely gets frustrated and he's excellent at holding off defenders, Yes, he's renowned for his goalscoring but he's much much more than a penalty box style predator........

None of that has been tested at a decent level, though. There are plenty of Scottish strikers who would look like they had much more about them if they dropped down a level or five. 

[Marshmallo]

51 minutes ago, Stellaboz said:

Bates has massive potential

That'll be why Hamburg, a second tier German side, have punted him out on loan to a no mark English Championship side where he can't even get in the team.

Bates is another on the ever expanding list who have become superstars overnight because they moved to continental Europe.

[Scary Bear]

4 minutes ago, Marshmallo said:

That'll be why Hamburg, a second tier German side, have punted him out on loan to a no mark English Championship side where he can't even get in the team.

Bates is another on the ever expanding list who have become superstars overnight because they moved to continental Europe.

Bates has just turned 23. He’s played centre half for Sevco in the Premiership before he went to Germany. He certainly has potential. Unfortunately we need tried and tested international players but the only ones who offer that are the likes of Mulgrew and Berra who are past it. 

The likes of Bates, McKenna (who is in the mould of Bates in that he looks the part but is only 22 and a bit ropey for Scotland), Cooper, Findlay and Devlin are what’s available who have potential and are early to mid-20s. I think we’re going to have to persevere with these and try to find a decent centre back pairing.

[Marshmallo]

3 minutes ago, Scary Bear said:

Bates has just turned 23. He’s played centre half for Sevco in the Premiership before he went to Germany. He certainly has potential. Unfortunately we need tried and tested international players but the only ones who offer that are the likes of Mulgrew and Berra who are past it. 

The likes of Bates, McKenna (who is in the mould of Bates in that he looks the part but is only 22 and a bit ropey for Scotland), Cooper, Findlay and Devlin are what’s available who have potential and are early to mid-20s. I think we’re going to have to persevere with these and try to find a decent centre back pairing.

Liam Cooper is 28, is captaining the best club in the Championship and is the best defender in the league going by the advanced stats (defensive duels won etc). Bates is on loan from one second tier club to another and can't get a game in the same league Cooper is strolling through.

I get what you're saying re the need to play young defenders to find a partnership but I'd have Bates down the pecking order below every player you've listed there. Mulgrew is still starting games for a Championship team too.

[DAFC.]

Why was Cooper not in that squad there?

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, SpoonTon said:

None of that has been tested at a decent level, though. There are plenty of Scottish strikers who would look like they had much more about them if they dropped down a level or five. 

My question there would be, like who ?

[DAFC.]

4 minutes ago, Marshmallo said:

Liam Cooper is 28, is captaining the best club in the Championship and is the best defender in the league going by the advanced stats (defensive duels won etc). Bates is on loan from one second tier club to another and can't get a game in the same league Cooper is strolling through.

I get what you're saying re the need to play young defenders to find a partnership but I'd have Bates down the pecking order below every player you've listed there. Mulgrew is still starting games for a Championship team too.

What are you basing that on?

[Marshmallo]

4 minutes ago, DAFC. said:

Why was Cooper not in that squad there?

Injured for 6 weeks. Won't be available for the games next month either.

1 minute ago, DAFC. said:

What are you basing that on?

The eye test, advanced stats, last season and this season so far.

[DAFC.]

6 minutes ago, Marshmallo said:

The eye test, advanced stats, last season and this season so far.

[SpoonTon]

28 minutes ago, WATTOO said:

My question there would be, like who ?

You could start with players like Matt Phillips, Oli McBurnie, Steven Naismith, and Johnny Russell. All different types of forwards at their respective levels whose weaker parts of their game would look much stronger playing in the Scottish Championship. You could then even look at players like Marc McNulty and Chris Maguire, who are far too good for the level that Shankland is playing at. 

I'm not dismissing Shankland. I'm just saying that he is untested. Players and coaches have spoken highly about him in training, including this week, which is a good sign. It can be a tough job for a national team manager to determine who the best players actually are when the players are playing at a wide variety of levels. But I think it really should be stressed that the Scottish Championship is a terrible level of football when assessing even the minimum level that Scotland are aspiring to be at. This doesn't exclude Shankland. It just makes it difficult to tell what parts of his game he'll be able to take to a higher level, and which he won't. 

[Guest]

Just now, SpoonTon said:

You could start with players like Matt Phillips, Oli McBurnie, Steven Naismith, and Johnny Russell. All different types of forwards at their respective levels whose weaker parts of their game would look much stronger playing in the Scottish Championship. You could then even look at players like Marc McNulty and Chris Maguire, who are far too good for the level that Shankland is playing at. 

I'm not dismissing Shankland. I'm just saying that he is untested. Players and coaches have spoken highly about him in training, including this week, which is a good sign. It can be a tough job for a national team manager to determine who the best players actually are when the players are playing at a wide variety of levels. But I think it really should be stressed that the Scottish Championship is a terrible level of football when assessing even the minimum level that Scotland are aspiring to be at. This doesn't exclude Shankland. It just makes it difficult to tell what parts of his game he'll be able to take to a higher level, and which he won't. 

Personally I don't see much, if any, of a gulf between the top end of the Championship and the bottom to mid end of the Scottish Premiership.

Livingston proved that, Ross County are proving that and even St Mirren managed to avoid the drop last season with pretty much the same if not worse squad than they had in the Championship.

Although there's no doubt that the English Championship is a higher level, it's not quite the enormous gulf that many like to make out, Yes, in terms of transfer fees perhaps, however just because you stick a £20 million figure on someone doesn't make them a better player, it just reflects the market and the amount of cash which is in freeflow.

As for Shankland, it could easily be argued that he's also "far too good" for the level he's playing at, however his own personal circumstances and the fact Dundee Utd are a huge club at this level with aspirations of moving up mean that his stay here is likely to be very short lived, one way or another..........

[Scary Bear]

56 minutes ago, Marshmallo said:

Liam Cooper is 28, is captaining the best club in the Championship and is the best defender in the league going by the advanced stats (defensive duels won etc). Bates is on loan from one second tier club to another and can't get a game in the same league Cooper is strolling through.

I get what you're saying re the need to play young defenders to find a partnership but I'd have Bates down the pecking order below every player you've listed there. Mulgrew is still starting games for a Championship team too.

I don’t argue with that. Bates isn’t playing at the moment. Until he is playing, and playing well, at a decent level he shouldn’t be considered.

As for Cooper, he’s been about forever and for some reason, during a period where we have a lack of decent centre backs, he hasn’t had a look-in until the last month. Why is that?

Mulgrew has had his chance. He has given good service to scotland but it’s probably time to try and move on and build for the future. Even Cooper is in the ‘getting on a bit’ camp, if we’re looking to actually build towards a tournament rather than being eternal also-rans.

[Enigma]

I’d get Billy Gilmour in the squad, especially over another makeweight, Fleck, who will maybe get 3-5 Scotland caps in his career tops, and only if we have an injury crisis at that!

[Marshmallo]

27 minutes ago, WATTOO said:

Although there's no doubt that the English Championship is a higher level, it's not quite the enormous gulf that many like to make out, Yes, in terms of transfer fees perhaps, however just because you stick a £20 million figure on someone doesn't make them a better player, it just reflects the market and the amount of cash which is in freeflow.

Why do these clubs not just sign cheap players from the Scottish leagues then?

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Marshmallo said:

Why do these clubs not just sign cheap players from the Scottish leagues then?

You'd need to ask the agents.........

[Scary Bear]

27 minutes ago, Marshmallo said:

Why do these clubs not just sign cheap players from the Scottish leagues then?

I thought they did? John McGinn and Kenny McLean are the two of the most recent ones. McKenna to follow shortly going by his interview on the Sportscene highlights. Mulgrew and David Marshall. Andy Robertson went to Hull. Russell went to Derby. Must be a few more. The English Championship is the main destination for half-decent footballers from the Scottish Premiership.