West Region U20 Development League?

[BTID]

Kind of a follow on from the long thread on the future of junior football and how the west Region is behind the times, I feel our youth setup is likewise.

We have loads of great well run clubs with their development squad (if you want to call it that / U21 team) playing the same time and day as the first team. Surely that doesn’t make any sense? Basically young players making the step up often have to sit on a bench and not play at all?

Moreover at this level here, one week you play at a cracking junior ground, the next your on a awful public park. 

Surely in order to develop good footballers for our clubs we need to have a proper ambitious structure in place for ambitious clubs and look at a similar model to the lowland/eos Friday night Development league.

With more clubs transforming into floodlit AstroTurf - potentially we could have a great league. At the moment we as a club have to finish at U19 which is a shame as we might lose good players who need more time to develop. 

At the moment we no fixtures to plan ahead. We have played Friday night Sunday afternoon and now Saturday morning this weekend in the past 3 games. It’s just not ideal at all for continuity.

How good would it be to see the likes of Largs, Rutherglen, Rossvale, Cumnock, Kilwinning, Gartcairn, Renfrew, Petershill etc playing at proper venues every week plus I’m sure a host of top junior clubs could find a suitable venue if their ground doesn’t have floodlights.

Any clubs have thoughts on this?

 

Edited September 17, 2019 by BTID

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

A league for u21’s should be a requirement for west teams to join the pyramid, playing on a friday, like the EOSL teams.

[Guest]

A league for u21’s should be a requirement for west teams to join the pyramid, playing on a friday, like the EOSL teams.

Or alternatively allow each club wanting a development side to apply to have an under 20s so it fits with everything else 20s related. The club can have 1st players play as over agers (6 games per season if over 20 and for multiple uses including injury recovery) and 20s players can regularly be utilised in the 1st team squad (both sign the same contract so there is no need for loans or contract cancellations etc).

[Arthurlie1981]

Kind of a follow on from the long thread on the future of junior football and how the west Region is behind the times, I feel our youth setup is likewise.
We have loads of great well run clubs with their development squad (if you want to call it that / U21 team) playing the same time and day as the first team. Surely that doesn’t make any sense? Basically young players making the step up often have to sit on a bench and not play at all?
Moreover at this level here, one week you play at a cracking junior ground, the next your on a awful public park. 
Surely in order to develop good footballers for our clubs we need to have a proper ambitious structure in place for ambitious clubs and look at a similar model to the lowland/eos Friday night Development league.
With more clubs transforming into floodlit AstroTurf - potentially we could have a great league. At the moment we as a club have to finish at U19 which is a shame as we might lose good players who need more time to develop. 
At the moment we no fixtures to plan ahead. We have played Friday night Sunday afternoon and now Saturday morning this weekend in the past 3 games. It’s just not ideal at all for continuity.
How good would it be to see the likes of Largs, Rutherglen, Rossvale, Cumnock, Kilwinning, Gartcairn, Renfrew, Petershill etc playing at proper venues every week plus I’m sure a host of top junior clubs could find a suitable venue if their ground doesn’t have floodlights.
Any clubs have thoughts on this?
 

This was proposed by East Kilbride Thistle a few years ago with very support from other junior clubs.

[LeeKRR1878]

Players can already sign dual contracts between the 1st team and u21s. A good few of these teams already play in the West of Scotland under 21s league anyway governed by the SYFA. However, I do agree this would be quite a good idea. On the flip side though, In the view of the SYFA, you'd be taking away alot of the cubs currently competing in that league which is arguably one of the most competitive in u21s football in Scotland. Perhaps clubs which don't have a youth setup could look to arrange some sort of partnership/pathway for the local independent clubs. E.g. Kilsyth Rangers and Kilsyth Athletic, Harmony Row with Renfrew (if Renfrew don't already have a youth setup), Wishaw WW with Wishaw Juniors. Some of these clubs may already have something like this in place though

[Ginaro]

2 hours ago, LeeKRR1878 said:

In the view of the SYFA, you'd be taking away alot of the cubs currently competing in that league which is arguably one of the most competitive in u21s football in Scotland.

I thought that it was the only U21 league remaining in Scotland as there's no U21s in the east? And its numbers are decreasing, four years ago there was 50 teams now it's 35.

Be good to work out how many of those U21s could either play under lights or have a floodlit 3G nearby.

[BTID]

3 hours ago, Arthurlie1981 said:

 

This was proposed by East Kilbride Thistle a few years ago with very support from other junior clubs.

 

A few years have passed and the juniors situation has very much changed also. Would be interested to hear their proposal at the time what they had planned.

[LeeKRR1878]

I thought that it was the only U21 league remaining in Scotland as there's no U21s in the east? And its numbers are decreasing, four years ago there was 50 teams now it's 35.
Be good to work out how many of those U21s could either play under lights or have a floodlit 3G nearby.

You could be right, I had a spell with Harestanes u21s in that league a few years ago and at that time I'm sure there were a few different ones. There's a thread on the Youth forum about a decrease in u21s teams in general. I'm sure most of them will have floodlit parks nearby as I'm sure the majority, if not all, will train on them. Plus most councils are installing them

[BTID]

9 minutes ago, Ginaro said:

I thought that it was the only U21 league remaining in Scotland as there's no U21s in the east? And its numbers are decreasing, four years ago there was 50 teams now it's 35.

Be good to work out how many of those U21s could either play under lights or have a floodlit 3G nearby.

This is correct, the u21 Scottish Cup is that league. It’s so fragmented now at the top level. 

Ive seen the standard at 21s and it isn’t great tbh. Albeit I have not seen as many games in the PL. I tabled a motion with the clubs to either create a new 21s league or change to a Friday night with the existing setup.

Of all the clubs, kilwinning Clyde and gartcairn (along with ourselves) where the only ones to show. The status quo would not have voted for a change to a fri due to venue issues, but many liked the idea if that was an option to them. 

That’s why something aligned to the lowland u20 makes more sense to me.

[BTID]

4 minutes ago, LeeKRR1878 said:

16 minutes ago, Ginaro said:

I thought that it was the only U21 league remaining in Scotland as there's no U21s in the east? And its numbers are decreasing, four years ago there was 50 teams now it's 35.
Be good to work out how many of those U21s could either play under lights or have a floodlit 3G nearby.

You could be right, I had a spell with Harestanes u21s in that league a few years ago and at that time I'm sure there were a few different ones. There's a thread on the Youth forum about a decrease in u21s teams in general. I'm sure most of them will have floodlit parks nearby as I'm sure the majority, if not all, will train on them. Plus most councils are installing them

The biggest issue was cost to host a game on a Friday with Glasgow life I was told.

21s has went from 4 leagues few years to 2 last year. They done a east west split this year which makes it 3 but it’s still the same number of clubs.  

 

Eos 21s disbanded when the 20s came in and the north is u20 as well I’m sure it also finishes at U19s.

 

Edited September 18, 2019 by BTID

[GNU_Linux]

My own preference would be to join the LL/EOS u20 buts that not possible currently being outwith the pyramid as far as I'm aware. From what I've observed its a great setup with some cracking attendances & also removes the issue of dual contracts.

[BTID]

Dual contracts is not an issue we can currently do this with the syfa. Unless you mean the kick off time in which case you are right.

In another thread the rules were looked at and there seemed confusion over it but someone did say that it is possible to apply.

 

[LeeKRR1878]

This is correct, the u21 Scottish Cup is that league. It’s so fragmented now at the top level. 
Ive seen the standard at 21s and it isn’t great tbh. Albeit I have not seen as many games in the PL. I tabled a motion with the clubs to either create a new 21s league or change to a Friday night with the existing setup.
Of all the clubs, kilwinning Clyde and gartcairn (along with ourselves) where the only ones to show. The status quo would not have voted for a change to a fri due to venue issues, but many liked the idea if that was an option to them. 
That’s why something aligned to the lowland u20 makes more sense to me.

Possibly a daft question here but what's the difference with the LL u20s league compared to the WoS u21s?

[BTID]

7 minutes ago, LeeKRR1878 said:

1 hour ago, BTID said:

This is correct, the u21 Scottish Cup is that league. It’s so fragmented now at the top level. 
Ive seen the standard at 21s and it isn’t great tbh. Albeit I have not seen as many games in the PL. I tabled a motion with the clubs to either create a new 21s league or change to a Friday night with the existing setup.
Of all the clubs, kilwinning Clyde and gartcairn (along with ourselves) where the only ones to show. The status quo would not have voted for a change to a fri due to venue issues, but many liked the idea if that was an option to them. 
That’s why something aligned to the lowland u20 makes more sense to me.

Possibly a daft question here but what's the difference with the LL u20s league compared to the WoS u21s?

LL u20 are not part of the syfa - 21s wos is.

[Arthurlie1981]

A few years have passed and the juniors situation has very much changed also. Would be interested to hear their proposal at the time what they had planned.

They have but very few committees have changed. It was proposed to copy the model used by the EOS. We supported it as it would have suited us to have the 20/21’s play on a different day allowing easier access to them for a Saturday.

If it is to happen it will be long overdue and should be welcomed!!

[cmontheloknow]

14 minutes ago, Arthurlie1981 said:

 

They have but very few committees have changed. It was proposed to copy the model used by the EOS. We supported it as it would have suited us to have the 20/21’s play on a different day allowing easier access to them for a Saturday.

If it is to happen it will be long overdue and should be welcomed!!

And there is zero point having them play same day as the main benefit is being able to have the additional squad of u20 players available for 1st team selection as they are signed on same basis as the main squad, as opposed to relying on untidy delayed transfers.

[LeeKRR1878]

LL u20 are not part of the syfa - 21s wos is.

Yeah but is the whole set up different? E.g different game days, is it a single division, exclusive to LL teams only meaning dual contracts don't need to be taken for players?

[Burnie_man]

45 minutes ago, BTID said:

LL u20 are not part of the syfa - 21s wos is.

The Lowland Development League has no affiliation to the SYFA.  Clubs from the SPFL, LL, EoS and SoS eligible to enter, games played Friday nights and the occasional Monday/Tuesday. A player signs the same contract as the senior club, overage players signed with the club (ie for the senior side), can play upto 6 league games in the U20's, and U20 players can play any number of games for the Seniors side without needing to do anything, the U20's are effectively part of the Senior squad and the U20 side can be viewed as a defacto reserve side.  It also allows the club to enter a team into the SFA Youth Cup, which is U18 level.

East Kilbride and BSC Glasgow have recently moved "up" to the SPFL Development League, and East Fife now field an U20 team In the Lowland Development League.

If and when the west have a senior league, I guess access will then be possible to the Lowland Development League.  It might still be possible now, has anyone asked?

 

Edited September 18, 2019 by Burnie_man

[Ginaro]

Just now, LeeKRR1878 said:

40 minutes ago, BTID said:

LL u20 are not part of the syfa - 21s wos is.

Yeah but is the whole set up different? E.g different game days, is it a single division, exclusive to LL teams only meaning dual contracts don't need to be taken for players?

• Played on Friday nights, and some midweeks where required (e.g. this Monday where the university teams are playing catchup with their games)
• Two conferences (15 and 16 teams) where the winners play-off for the title: http://slfl.co.uk/development-league-results/u20s-table/ plus some cup competitions.
• The rules are here: http://slfl.co.uk/rules/development-league-rules/
• 6.1 Eligibility
  • In order to be eligible to participate in the Under 20 Development League players must be registered for the Club for which they intend to play under the terms of the Registration Procedures as laid down by the Scottish Football Association for Non-Recreational Football with the exception of a player playing as a Trialist in accordance with the terms of Clause 6.3 hereunder. The transfer of players and transfer deadlines are governed by the relevant rules of the Lowland/ East of Scotland / South of Scotland Football Leagues.

2 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

If and when the west have a senior league, I guess access will then be possible to the Lowland Development League.

I think we established before that being in a senior league is not required to join the Lowlands U20?

"3. Membership shall be open to the Under-20 Development teams of all the clubs in membership of the Lowland / East of Scotland / South of Scotland Football Leagues and invited clubs who are Full or Registered Members of the Scottish Football Association Ltd."

Although whether any other rules prevent it I don't know.

There's already five U20 teams based in the west (one of which plays at Benburb and has also played in Kirkintilloch) - add some of the U21 teams and you could have a west conference.

[Burnie_man]

2 minutes ago, Ginaro said:

I think we established before that being in a senior league is not required to join the Lowlands U20?

"3. Membership shall be open to the Under-20 Development teams of all the clubs in membership of the Lowland / East of Scotland / South of Scotland Football Leagues and invited clubs who are Full or Registered Members of the Scottish Football Association Ltd."

Although whether any other rules prevent it I don't know.

There's already five U20 teams based in the west (one of which plays at Benburb and has also played in Kirkintilloch) - add some of the U21 teams and you could have a west conference.

Yeah I added that bit, and asked if any Junior club in the West have actually asked the question re membership.  There's seemed to be some dubiety over whether non-senior teams would be accepted.  The bit you highlighted contains "invited", which perhaps covers why East Fife are in it, but no non-senior clubs.

Has re-instatement been abolished yet in the Junior game? if not, that may create an issue of player movement between the adult team and U20.