Kris Boyd - 'Football is now a Middle Class sport'

[Jambomo]

I think rather than one single reason or issue, affordability is just one of a number of wider society issues in general. There is rarely any situation in which one particular issue is to blame, its usually a number of circumstances combined that causes issues.

Scots often prefer to watch sport than take part in it and kids look up to people like their parents and other adults so if we are pretty sedentary as a nation, and tend to prefer going down the pub or sitting in the house with a bottle of wine, than going to play fives or going out for a run, then that will be the impression that kids get of how to live and spend their time.  

Another issue is the number of kids you can get into sports in general. Volume matters when it comes to getting decent players coming through, many kids may lose interest/not be good enough. Smaller countries are at a disadvantage but if they can get enough kids engaged in sport then you can see from teams like Iceland, what can be done. I don't think we are getting enough kids into training and yeah, having other things to do like computer games etc doesn't help. We don't seem great in Scotland at managing balance between a number of activities, often the kids I know are on computers etc all the time, rather than for a bit amongst other activities, Perhaps other countries mange this balance better?

I think Boyd is right in the sense that cost is a factor, 5 aside pitches, sports centres etc can be expensive and these are the things that let you train in bad weather, winter etc. The cost of going to matches as well doesn't help, you lose the awe and excitement of being in a stadium and experiencing a big match environment when you are just watching on TV. I think that doesn't help in getting kids to appreciate what being a professional might be about.

[D Angelo Barksdale]

As has been said, there's many reasons why we're pish, but the buck has to stop with SFA. What other organisation would get away with 20 years of abject failure like this ? Anywhere else and the whole lot would have been hounded out of office. An absolute shambles of a national body.

The game has changed massively over the last 20 years and these c***s, with their bowling club mentality, joabs fur the boys, 'it's Sandy's turn to be Treasurer now' shite didn't even see it coming when it was staring them in the face.

[Jambomo]

1 minute ago, Henderson to deliver ..... said:

As has been said, there's many reasons why we're pish, but the buck has to stop with SFA. What other organisation would get away with 20 years of abject failure like this ? Anywhere else and the whole lot would have been hounded out of office. An absolute shambles of a national body.

The game has changed massively over the last 20 years and these c***s, with their bowling club mentality, joabs fur the boys, 'it's Sandy's turn to be Treasurer now' shite didn't even see it coming when it was staring them in the face.

That's definitely true, the SFA are a big part of the problem. The "Jobs for the boys" approach throughout means that they don't get the best people into postilions that really need experience and competence, coaching such as hiring McLeish who was clearly no up to it, Mackay as 'Performance director' with nothing to suggest he has any qua;ities needed for that job. They are a bunch of cronyist leeches. 

[Sydney Carton]

This thread is far more coherent, with more constructive ideas than anything I'll hear on Sportsound.

I think it's something to do with the football coaching in this country, but I'm not sure what. Football in the rest of the world has moved on and we appear to be stuck in the 20th century. Whenever I see kids playing football (eg small sided games at half time in a pro game) the standard of play and coaching is risible.

Other western European countries have also suffered from a decline in kids playing football in the streets, greater choice of sports, video games, etc - but they seem to have coped with it a lot better than us. And we are able to produce top class players in other sports (Chris Hoy, the Murrays, Stuart Hogg as mentioned above).  But not football.

Edited September 10, 2019 by Sydney Carton
spelling

[TheScarf]

Without even checking you can pretty much guarantee Hoy, the Murrays and Hogg had better coaches when they were learning their trade.

Andy Murray has freely admitted the facilities and coaches weren’t up to his requirement in Scotland so he had to go where they were.

[Kuro]

Boyd himself is the perfect example of why we are shit, there's a guy with a talent who.was given an opportunity to become a top player.  A combination of laziness and lack of professionalism saw him.never realise his potential, did nothing whatsoever at the top level and spent his career scoring against utter jobbers like St Johnstone.

There is no doubt whatsoever that guys like Boyd and Derek Riordan had the talent to play for a team like Liverpool or Sevilla.  We produce them, the problem is why do they end up at Hibs instead.  It's a mindset thing.

Edited September 10, 2019 by Kuro

[Kuro]

Boyd displayed a lack of ambition and a pigheaded refusal to even try to improve his obvious weak points right throughout his career, as well as a big time Charlie attitude and a shit lifestyle for a footballer in terms of diet, professionalism, training and alcohol.  He might want to look a wee bit closer to home for reasons why we're failing.

[Kuro]

Barry Ferguson said he ate at McDonald's twice a week whilst Rangers and Scotland captain.  Do you think Xavi did that?  It's a lack of professionalism and dedication that is the problem.  As well as small minded myopic wee neds thinking playing for rangers or Celtic means you've made it and is the be all and end all when really it means you're a third rate footballer.

[Kuro]

It might have even been three times per week Ferguson said, can you see Luka Modric doing that?  Remember the outcry at rangers when le guen banned monster munch?  I mean fucking monster munch?  Really?  Professional athletes on 30 grand a week and they're eating monster munch?  It's fuckin unbelievable.

[TheScarf]

Yeah the playing for Celtic or Rangers being the pinnacle needs to stop.

its a monumental lack of ambition. Boyd is right smack bang in the middle of an age group where that ethos was rife. 

 

[SilverWolfe]

It might have even been three times per week Ferguson said, can you see Luka Modric doing that?  Remember the outcry at rangers when le guen banned monster munch?  I mean fucking monster munch?  Really?  Professional athletes on 30 grand a week and they're eating monster munch?  It's fuckin unbelievable.

One of your better posts and pretty spot on.

People talking about teams of the past as if they done anything. The teams in the 70s should have been making finals or semi finals given the players available. Those teams qualifying is irrelevant when they so badly underachieved.

The reason they failed miserably is the same as now. Shite attitude to anything, a completely bizarre lack of belief in ourselves and no willingness to accept change no matter what. Diet, alcohol, shite work rate all come into it.

[ICTChris]

Scottish football probably benefited from having lots of players in one of Europes top leagues before players really played abroad much.  If you look at the squads from the 1982 and 1986 World Cup, no squad has as many players playing outside of their home country as Scotland.  Obviously that changes with the opening up of transfer markets and players moving to more countries.  Again, this has been driven by processes far beyond Scottish football - the growth of television, the 'Big Five' leagues, the development of the European Union, the collapse of Communism.

[ICTChris]

I think sometimes we overrate players who don't quite make it and over emphasise the impact that going out on the peeve all the time had on their career.  It's kind of a story we can always tell about our players.

I had forgotten about the Monster Munch revolt though, what a time to be alive.

[Kuro]

21 minutes ago, TheScarf said:

Yeah the playing for Celtic or Rangers being the pinnacle needs to stop.

its a monumental lack of ambition. Boyd is right smack bang in the middle of an age group where that ethos was rife. 

 

A guy like Callum McGregor should have realised by now he's done everything he th at Celtic, learned everything they can teach him, and is now in a comfort zone and won't improve further if he stays there.  He's hitting the best few years of his career, he should be away to Leicester or Bordeaux or fiorentina or sporting Lisbon or ajax or real betis etc, instead he'll stay at Celtic beating Motherwell four times a season and thinking he's a player.

 

[pozbaird]

The women’s team are getting better though, so it’s not all bad. I genuinely found myself getting more ‘emotionally involved’ in watching their efforts in the World Cup than I did watching the men get pumped by Russia and Belgium. If my experience of watching both teams is anything to go by, then we don’t necessarily demand that either the men or women always qualify for everything, or win all the time. We will however, get behind a team who look like they care, look like they’re trying, and gave it their best. I cannot say the men’s team are reaching these three basic goals required for Scottish fans to excuse some of their other failings.

Edited September 10, 2019 by pozbaird

[EH75]

Folk have touched on this already but is there an argument that our league set up is now in a sort of sweet spot of mediocrity in that it's not shite enough to force half decent players to move elsewhere to develop, but it's not good enough to allow them to really fulfill their potential.

If you look at the two of the most comparable countries, Wales & Ireland, if you are a half decent young player there and want to progress you have to go abroad (probably to England) fairly young where you will get access to top quality coaching and develop accordingly, hence they have produced more top class players than us over the last 30 years or so. If you are a half decent young player in Scotland you can piss about at a mid table SPL side before going to the old firm and stagnating but still winning everything domestically and making a good living then maybe going the Championship or lower EPL in your mid to late twenties by which time its way too late. 

I know there have been plenty of our national side come through English teams so maybe thats all nonsense but it's just a thought. 

[TheScarf]

That’s exactly it, the 2 Irelands and Wales have pub leagues so anyone with any discernible talent goes to England when they hit 16. 

Up jere they just job around their whole career and end up at Barnsley or Sheffield Wednesday on 10k a week for a few years if they’re lucky. These are the guys who make up Scotland squads.

[HibeeJibee]

For his thesis to hold water Boyd would have to demonstrate that becoming middle class makes worse footballers, that our football has become middle class, and other nations haven't...

There are many issues at play: the world has changed, society has changed and football has changed.

We could never have sustained our historic highs but could avoid our current lows.

This is not helped by fantasy measurements at Hampden. They'll tell you participation has never been higher: what they actually mean is registration has never been higher, and counting has never been more liberal. What it takes for a primary school child to be defined as regularly playing football is almost a joke. In reality the facts on the ground show fewer boys entering formal football and fewer sticking with it. Look at any tally of council pitch usage, or the size of any youth league. This magnifies all the way through to adulthood: there were 838 Saturday amateur clubs in 2013-14 and there are now well under 600 (and someone folds almost every week).

Yet we had an SFA "social impact" report last year claiming 1 in 7 Scots play football, and 4 in 10 boys/men aged 5-65, when everyone knows that is utterly ludicrous. In the case study for Aberdeen & Aberdeenshire it was claimed 71,000 out of a population of 450,000 play.

What we need to recall is that there is a huge difference between being a nation of football watchers - of which stakes we are nearly unsurpassed - and being a nation of football players.

Edited September 10, 2019 by HibeeJibee

[welshbairn]

4 minutes ago, HibeeJibee said:

For his thesis to hold water Boyd would have to demonstrate that becoming middle class makes worse footballers, that our football has become middle class, and other nations haven't...

There are many issues at play: the world has changed, society has changed and football has changed.

We could never have sustained our historic highs but could avoid our current lows.

This is not helped by fantasy measurements at Hampden. They'll tell you participation has never been higher: what they actually mean is registration has never been higher, and counting has never been more liberal. What it takes for a primary school child to be defined as regularly playing football is almost a joke. In reality the facts on the ground show fewer boys entering formal football and fewer sticking with it. Look at any tally of council pitch usage, or the size of any youth league. This magnifies all the way through to adulthood: there were 838 Saturday amateur clubs in 2013-14 and there are now well under 600 (and someone folds almost every week). Yet we had an SFA "social impact" report last year claiming 1 in 7 Scots play football, and 4 in 10 boys/men aged 5-65, when everyone knows that is utterly ludicrous. In the case study for Aberdeen & Aberdeenshire it was claimed 71,000 out of a population of 450,000 play.

What we need to recall is that there is a huge difference between being a nation of football watchers - of which stakes we are nearly unsurpassed - and being a nation of football players.

I remember the explanation of why Holland were so good and we were so shite was because far more people played football than watched it in Holland. When Holland started getting shite I thought the same might be happening to them, but they seem to be turning it around recently.

[Detournement]

Boyd definitely has a point. The countries doing well now and have players who families are recent immigrants and have a hunger and drive which our players come nowhere near. This is a good article from Lukaku about his experiences https://www.theplayerstribune.com/en-us/articles/romelu-lukaku-ive-got-some-things-to-say
 

Quote

 

People in football love to talk about mental strength. Well, I’m the strongest dude you’re ever going to meet. Because I remember sitting in the dark with my brother and my mom, saying our prayers, and thinking, believing, knowing … it’s going to happen.

I kept my promise to myself for a while. But then some days I’d come home from school and find my mum crying. So I finally told her one day, “Mum, it’s gonna change. You’ll see. I’m going to play football for Anderlecht, and it’s going to happen soon. We’ll be good. You won’t have to worry anymore.”

 

Here due to social exclusion the working class kids who made up the backbone of the national team are priced out financially or even just mentally. You can see it on the park in the lack of aggression and unwillingness to takes risks, there is nobody like Faddy. If you look at the team who beat France and Ukraine it had guys like Barry Ferguson, Lee McCulloch, Faddy, Boyd, Scott Brown, Paul Hartley and Hutton who all have a bit of an edge to them as well as a few guys like Darren Fletcher and Christian Dailly who were more middle class types. Now we have nearly an entire team of Darren Fletchers.

Society has changed. Hardly any kids on the streets, almost no organised football and just less aggression and violence in general which is obviously a good thing but probably bad for producing footballers. There has also been a big swing towards people living in new build estates where loads of streets are cul de sacs without much around them which kids can't move about the way you could in an older town/scheme design.

The lack of immigration here is a big factor as well, where would Belgium, France, Holland and England be without their players from BAME backgrounds? Strachan got pelters for his genetics comments but we have a team of midgets while other nations are bringing through guys like Pogba and Rashford.

 

Edited September 10, 2019 by Detournement