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King Kebab

Scotland v Belgium (Match Thread)

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Are we in danger of dropping into another pot, or does the Nations' League thing impact on that?
Not sure if anyone else has replied but after these results we're now borderline pot 3/4 for the next WC draw.
I think there's still 9 or 10 games (?), not including main Euro's, to go before the draw though. We really need to be winning games like Cyprus away and Kazakhstan at home if we want to stay in pot 3.

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1 hour ago, Scary Bear said:

As one of the rugby day-trippers, I agree. Going to the rugby is a much better and more enjoyable experience. It’s nearer to where I live, with handy trains, alcohol in the ground and it’s usually played at the weekend. They even win quite regularly.

Compare that to Monday night football in Glasgow, where I drive there then drive home after a heavy defeat.

I've been going for years- the demographic has totally changed since the alcohol has been introduced. Scotland have got a bit better over the time but there are more couples and women than at the football and the tickets are very expensive now and it sells out.

It's an entirely different demographic to football however. 

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Looking back at the game we started well up until their first goal, how they were 2 v1 more or less from our set piece is criminal, amateur stuff.

Mulgrew is finished at international level and somehow only knows how to play it square acorss to the other centre half or hoof it as hard as he can up the park.

McTominay hasn't shown himself in a great light the last 2 qualifiers, game totally passed him by.

Snodgrass asks questions with his deliveries from set pieces and general crossing ability but he's got zero pace, doesn't take players on.

Christie looked interested and wanted to make things happen but didn't affect the game all that much.

Phillips did okay kind of but make no mistake he should never start up front for Scotland.

Rest of the squad I can't even be bothered mentioning.

I can't believe I found myself agreeing with Kris Boyd after the game too.

 

Brutal Stuff...

also Kevin De Bruyne is currently the best Midfielder on the planet. Tremendous footballer.

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1 hour ago, Smokerson said:

No, they were that arrogant and stupid they thought one phone call to O'Neil and he would've accepted the job, when he knocked it back they had absolutely no plan at all and started phoning up Walter Smith and McLeish, Utter morons in charge of our game

Can't argue with any of that...

 

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i only watched the match from 60 mins last night, but from what i saw and what i heard from boyd and mcfadden afterwards, as much as i loathe to say it boyd was correct in a lot of what he said.

the sport in scotland is now middle class, no longer a working class sport, kids and their parents are being asked to pay out astronomical figures for their kids to play the game on a regular basis, and to even play on the pitches. the same pitches the powers that be built to improve grass roots yet you need a second mortgage to even set foot on them. no ball games everywhere you look, kids cant even look at a ball in the street without some old coffin dodger giving it laldy and chasing the kids away. 

the sfa dont give two shites about developing the grass roots, and as boyd stated there is nothing coming through, no starlets that we can look at and say they are the future. everyone keeps blaming the managers, but the managers hands are tied based upon what the diehards at hampden want to allow them to do. if it involves outlaying money then you can forget that idea.

clarke will sort out the shambles in defence eventually, unfortunately its not an overnight fix, and he has a week every so often to work with them, where as a club manager can pull them in every day to improve them. a problem just as worrying is the fact that they cant hit a barn door when they do get chances, and cant create chances. we now have no recognised number 9, no layer that you would instantly place on the team sheet knowing they will be worth at least a goal. an even bigger problem than all of this is the fact none of them show any enthusiasm to play for their country. the majority of them run about like headless chickens playing at 30-40% of what they are capable of. 

marshall is a decent goalie, good shot stopper but i have concerns with his positioning, robertson - plays and looks good at liverpool because he is surrounded by decent players to bail him out when he makes mistakes, do that for scotland and its going to show big style, hes not a layer to give to much responsibility to, let him play free of captaincy etc and you might see better of him. O'Donnell, Cooper and Mulgrew are not international class, Mulgrew is a liability and Cooper and O'Donnell are just not capable of the positioning and pace of the level. Cooper may lay for Leeds and may blossom later, but at the moment he needs a lot of work.

McTominay, what does anybody see in this guy? hes clueless, always looking for the glamorous ball, never in position and generally a liability to his team mates.

McLean = not unlike Cooper given time and coaching he may improve but for now hes not ready for international football.

McGregor - one of the i cant be arsed crew, happy to parade his skills at celtic park where he knows that every week he doesnt have to give 100% to look half decnt, but found out at international level

McBurnie - signs for a premier league club and suddenly hes one of our top strikers? hes steven fletcher in the making, does well at club level bombs it at international.

as boyd stated last night, its no longer the be all for kids to be a footballer, noone cares anymore, you used to say lace eleven kids on the field from the schemes and you would get guaranteed 110% passion, grit and commitment, probs get beat but id rather get beat showing that than get beat watching the lack of effort, couldnt give a shite, why am i even here mentality that i saw for 20 mins last night. if they dont want to produce, effort, commitment to the cause, or even a bit of passion then get them to f**k out of the way and let in people who want to learn, show passion and are prepared to fight for the cause. too many wasters in the team at the moment who could not care less, [heard them talking about meaningless games upcoming, is any game at international level meaningless?] if it means we have to put up with the likes of cooper, o'donnell et al and a few beatings until they learn and improve so be it, i dont think changing clarke is the answer, get some stability, clear out the muppets at the sfa i say.

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30 minutes ago, flyingscot said:

 

I've been going for years- the demographic has totally changed since the alcohol has been introduced. Scotland have got a bit better over the time but there are more couples and women than at the football and the tickets are very expensive now and it sells out.

It's an entirely different demographic to football however. 

The people I know that have gone to Scotland rugby games would struggle to name 5 rugby players. It's like some sort of cultural experience or something. They would also look down their nose at football, for the most part. 

I know that's probably not typical of many of the crowd, but it is really is a very different demographic. 

The atmosphere at Hampden for qualifiers had completely changed over the last decade. Last night was the worst ever. I love going to Scotland matches, but I was dreading last night. The general feeling is one of having given up. 

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40 minutes ago, flyingscot said:

 

It's an entirely different demographic to football however. 

Never met anyone who has an interest in Rugby that isn't a complete Tory. Its an awful sport played by violent thugs and watched only by braying inbred tories.

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I remember watching Scotland v Belgium in 2001 and we fucked them and lost a daft goal at the end when Van Buyten scored that header. 

18 years later and they’re the best team on the planet with 2 of the best players on the planet in Hazard and De Bruyne.

Look at Scotland, the regression the other way is staggering. How can anyone of any power in Scottish football look at that and not want to do something about it?

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Losing to Belgium is entirely expected and even getting pumped isn’t a surprise. Losing in the manner we did, where they didn’t have to leave first gear to destroy us, we lost pathetic goals - it doesn’t matter who you’re playing, a goal like the second is only ever the result of horrific defending - the midfield was insipid and the tactics horribly naive was disgraceful.

It was already over after Friday night, but this is still the best shot at qualifying we’re going to have in years with the playoff format. We have to get the team that Clarke feels is the best shot at winning the playoffs out on the pitch in every remaining game in order to give them a chance of clicking before those games.

In some cases his hands are tied by injury, for example O’Donnell is nowhere near good enough but is comfortably our best right back option after Tierney, (although as bad as he was he was probably the least terrible of the back four last night) so until Tierney’s fit there’s nothing Clarke can do about that. Decide on the first choice centre backs and persist with them. Armstrong, Christie and Fraser should start every game, and considering our issues at right back Forrest’s defensive work-rate compared to every other winger makes him an obvious choice there. Decide which one of McLean and McTominay he prefers and persist with them rather than rotating - although some games may call for both - and decide if McGinn’s energy is worth his complete absence of positional discipline.

McBurnie is yet to have an acceptable performance in 7 caps - if he’s the plan for first choice then start him in every game until he comes good in the hope one good performance or goal can help him kick on. If not then it’s back to giving Naismith or Griffiths a run of games, or just concluding none of our options are good enough and playing an actual 4-6-0 where attacking midfielders move into the centre forward position rather than forming a bank of six on the halfway line.

Edited by Dunning1874

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25 minutes ago, Jason King said:

Never met anyone who has an interest in Rugby that isn't a complete Tory. Its an awful sport played by violent thugs and watched only by braying inbred tories.

 

Slightly sweeping statement but we can't get away from the fact rugby has always had a public school boy background, being measured by whether you played for Watsonians, Heriots blah blah.  I drag my ageing arse around a squash court to try and keep myself moving and sure enough within most squash clubs where I live it is the public school, old boy network at large.  They then worry where the next generaion will come from to compete at the highest level whilst a huge swathe of the population is effectively ignored.

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34 minutes ago, SpoonTon said:

The people I know that have gone to Scotland rugby games would struggle to name 5 rugby players. It's like some sort of cultural experience or something. They would also look down their nose at football, for the most part. 

I know that's probably not typical of many of the crowd, but it is really is a very different demographic. 

The atmosphere at Hampden for qualifiers had completely changed over the last decade. Last night was the worst ever. I love going to Scotland matches, but I was dreading last night. The general feeling is one of having given up. 

Obviously the atmosphere is going to be terrible for games like the last two where the performances are awful and had a feel of dead rubbers anyway with smaller crowds, but I think it was @craigkillie who made the point about all the family friendly half-time stuff they’ve ramped up over the last few years absolutely killing the mood of the crowd at Hampden, when you used to get singing throughout and the crowd was raring to go for the second half.

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57 minutes ago, still_game said:

the sport in scotland is now middle class, no longer a working class sport

I would disagree. The middle classes are still more likely to favour rugby.  If you mean that the former working class are now better off and have aspirations to be middle class then you could be right.

 

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4 hours ago, rainbowrising said:

Belgium simply set us up for counter attacking football. Any thought that we might have looked good at times needs weighed against the fact the Belgians were happy with that.  Mertens and DeBruyne ran us ragged.

When they went 4 up they suddenly decided to up the pace in the last 10 minutes and took the game to us  They could have scored at any time in that period.

 

Yeah Belgium came here looking to sit tight and hit the notoriously all out attack flair merchants of scotland.

That would definitely have been their game plan.

De Bruyne actually said after the game, they didn't start well. He must just be disguising the game plan so they can use it next time they play us.

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39 minutes ago, BingMcCrosby said:

Yeah Belgium came here looking to sit tight and hit the notoriously all out attack flair merchants of scotland.

That would definitely have been their game plan.

De Bruyne actually said after the game, they didn't start well. He must just be disguising the game plan so they can use it next time they play us.

DeBruyne....." We started a little bit iffy but after we scored we started to control the game. "

They scored in 9 minutes.  Nine.  That's all it took once they started 'iffy'.  If you see it as glass half-full rather than half-empty fine but you really are trying too hard to make it sound like we were in this game to any reall level.  Their opener was like the Celtic second at Ibrox.  High pace counter attack left Scotland in tatters but you just keep believing what you want, no big deal in the end, we were still utterly fucked by the end of the game.

 

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2 hours ago, rainbowrising said:

 

Slightly sweeping statement but we can't get away from the fact rugby has always had a public school boy background, being measured by whether you played for Watsonians, Heriots blah blah.  I drag my ageing arse around a squash court to try and keep myself moving and sure enough within most squash clubs where I live it is the public school, old boy network at large.  They then worry where the next generaion will come from to compete at the highest level whilst a huge swathe of the population is effectively ignored.

JK is a pant-wetting troll who posts from his mum's bedroom, hammering the keyboard with his forehead. Best just mute him.

I played my rugby in Pollok and not one of those boys was from any sort of posh background. I grew up in Castlemilk. In Edinburgh rugby is still pretty middle class, but not in Glasgow, Fife, Ayrshire or the Borders, I know that for sure.

But besides, why would it be bad to be middle class? Nobody chooses where they are born. Most of our genuinely world-class sportspeople in recent years have been middle class - Andy & Jamie Murray, Chris Hoy, Kathleen Granger, Heather Stanning, Laura Muir - while our best rugby player, Finn Russell, very much isn't (and I don't think Stuart Hogg is either). Andy Robertson grew up on the mean streets of Giffnock and went to St Ninian's.  

As for those who go to games, among those I go with there's one former Tory and the rest of us would rather remove an important organ withy a rusty spoon than vote Tory. Some small and bitter football fans like to project onto rugby fans, but really it's just about their own insecurities.

Getting to a point relevant to the thread, Scottish rugby has successfully broadened its base, both for players and fans, while the SFA is narrowing theirs all the time. I go to a lot of youth football games and judging by the accents of the players I'm not sure Kris Boyd is right, but I could well be getting a false impression. The SRU has put a huge amount of effort into getting kids into rugby, while what has the SFA done? It looks like they assume boys will just always want to play football and they'll take whatever talent emerges. That's where we are getting killed by countries like Belgium and even bloody Iceland.

Another scary stat is the SRU's turnover is far higher than the SFA's.

I don't see anything to give me hope and I don't expect to see Scotland at a World Cup ever again. 

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4 hours ago, flyingscot said:

 

I've been going for years- the demographic has totally changed since the alcohol has been introduced. Scotland have got a bit better over the time but there are more couples and women than at the football and the tickets are very expensive now and it sells out.

It's an entirely different demographic to football however. 

Alcohol definitely plays a part, but you don't need it in the stadium itself. They could put on a fan zone in the south car park, maybe another one on the empty ground behind the north-east corner. On Friday night I couldn't get on a tram at Saughton an hour and forty-five minutes before the game at Murrayfield, there were that many people going so early. There were tens of thousands in the ground 90 minutes before kick-off, though none in their seats. They were drinking, eating the far better food, getting their face painted, playing ball games in the west fan zone, listening to live music, socialising. It's taken years to build that up but now they have fans in a really good mood when they get to their seats, and they make a ton more money too. Who gives a shit about their 'demographic'?

Though the demographic thing... it depends on where you're sitting. Those in the expensive seats are often obviously much wealthier, less interested in the game and more there for the socialising. But in the cheap seats where I sit it's all pretty average people of the type you used to get regularly at Hampden.

As Scotland have become more shite and the experience of going to Hampden wears thin, especially compared with other things we do for fun, the demographic at Hampden has changed too. It's more hardcore and there are far fewer kids. 

 

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2 minutes ago, GordonS said:

In Edinburgh rugby is still pretty middle class, but not in Glasgow,

It most certainly is a middle class sport in Glasgow.

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5 minutes ago, GordonS said:

Alcohol definitely plays a part, but you don't need it in the stadium itself. They could put on a fan zone in the south car park, maybe another one on the empty ground behind the north-east corner. On Friday night I couldn't get on a tram at Saughton an hour and forty-five minutes before the game at Murrayfield, there were that many people going so early. There were tens of thousands in the ground 90 minutes before kick-off, though none in their seats. They were drinking, eating the far better food, getting their face painted, playing ball games in the west fan zone, listening to live music, socialising. It's taken years to build that up but now they have fans in a really good mood when they get to their seats, and they make a ton more money too. Who gives a shit about their 'demographic'?

Which option is closest to the general response when/if they lose a match?

a) Anger, vitriol and rage

b) Supportive and genial

c) No one really cares as they've had such a good time

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1 minute ago, GordonS said:

Alcohol definitely plays a part, but you don't need it in the stadium itself. They could put on a fan zone in the south car park, maybe another one on the empty ground behind the north-east corner. On Friday night I couldn't get on a tram at Saughton an hour and forty-five minutes before the game at Murrayfield, there were that many people going so early. There were tens of thousands in the ground 90 minutes before kick-off, though none in their seats. They were drinking, eating the far better food, getting their face painted, playing ball games in the west fan zone, listening to live music, socialising. It's taken years to build that up but now they have fans in a really good mood when they get to their seats, and they make a ton more money too. Who gives a shit about their 'demographic'?

Though the demographic thing... it depends on where you're sitting. Those in the expensive seats are often obviously much wealthier, less interested in the game and more there for the socialising. But in the cheap seats where I sit it's all pretty average people of the type you used to get regularly at Hampden.

As Scotland have become more shite and the experience of going to Hampden wears thin, especially compared with other things we do for fun, the demographic at Hampden has changed too. It's more hardcore and there are far fewer kids. 

 

The biggest driving force though behind the increased interest in the Scotland rugby team is the fact that we have some feckin good players....some of the best in the world in certain positions.....and we compete in and stand a chance of winning every game we play. 

12 years or so ago, under the Frank Hadden leadership, we were abysmal and the SRU couldn't give tickets away for home games. 

The improvement of both Glasgow and Edinburgh as professional clubs has lead to a wheen of exciting younger players coming through, and things have advanced under Cotter and Townsend to the point where we're selling out every home game and people are excited about watching Scotland.

Interest in rugby in Scotland is probably higher now than at any point in the professional era, and long may it continue. 

Those in the football world who dismiss rugby as 'only for posh Tories' need to take their heads out of their arses and get a grip on the reality and current health of both sports in Scotland. 

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29 minutes ago, rainbowrising said:

DeBruyne....." We started a little bit iffy but after we scored we started to control the game. "

They scored in 9 minutes.  Nine.  That's all it took once they started 'iffy'.  If you see it as glass half-full rather than half-empty fine but you really are trying too hard to make it sound like we were in this game to any reall level.  Their opener was like the Celtic second at Ibrox.  High pace counter attack left Scotland in tatters but you just keep believing what you want, no big deal in the end, we were still utterly fucked by the end of the game.

 

So de Bruyne did say they didn't start well. As I said

Please quote where I said we were in this game?

What I am saying is there were parts of the game where we pressed well, and kept possession well. The shape was also good. We lost goals to a counter attack and set pieces.

For the 4th game for a new manager with so little time I thought it was good in part (considering who we were playing)

 

Which is alot more realistic than martinez telling Belgium to sit in and keep it tight and try and hit Scotland on the break.

"listen guys this is Scotland, if we try and go at them Matt Philips will rip us to shreds"

"their too good, sit tight and we will try and counter"

Edited by BingMcCrosby

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