Away Ticket Pricing

[BC1888]

17 minutes ago, JTS98 said:

This is it, basically.

What's required, and in my opinion would very quickly settle the issue, is basically an away support strike.

Two cards of league fixtures in a row with empty away ends. Nothing else will work.

Imagine if you went to the same chip shop every Friday night and complained to the proprietor that his chips were too expensive as you gave him his money. He'd be mad to lower the prices so long as you're turning up and paying them. When you stop turning up, he might think about it.

A two-week away-end strike would generate loads of publicity and debate of the issue and ultimately hit all of the clubs in the pocket. That's when we'll see action. It would probably also help stir a more general conversation on the management of football in Scotland.

To a certain extent its hard to disagree. Would it work? Undoubtedly so. But as i posted above, speaking purely for my own support, it simply wouldn't happen.  And were clubs to boycott Celtic Park/Ibrox, would the clubs care? Sadly i doubt it. 

As i posted above, this does not need to be the action that gets us as Scottish football supporters what we need. Crystal palace fans ran a successful campaign in England without boycotting. We hope to replicate their success whilst similarly not planning any actions supporters would not buy into. 

 

 

Edited September 30, 2019 by BC1888

[craigkillie]

19 minutes ago, JTS98 said:

This is it, basically.

What's required, and in my opinion would very quickly settle the issue, is basically an away support strike.

Two cards of league fixtures in a row with empty away ends. Nothing else will work.

Imagine if you went to the same chip shop every Friday night and complained to the proprietor that his chips were too expensive as you gave him his money. He'd be mad to lower the prices so long as you're turning up and paying them. When you stop turning up, he might think about it.

A two-week away-end strike would generate loads of publicity and debate of the issue and ultimately hit all of the clubs in the pocket. That's when we'll see action. It would probably also help stir a more general conversation on the management of football in Scotland.

I don't think this strike would work completely. The three biggest rip-off merchants in the league are Celtic, Hearts and Rangers, and those are also the clubs which rely least on away support. The likely outcome of an away boycott would be that the smaller clubs would feel forced to lower their prices, but the bigger clubs might not be so bothered. For anything like this to work, it needs home supporters to act too.

[Guest JTS98]

3 minutes ago, BC1888 said:

To a certain extent its hard to disagree. Would it work? Undoubtedly so. But as i posted above, speaking purely for my own support, it simply wouldn't happen.  And were clubs to boycott Celtic Park/Ibrox, would the clubs care? Sadly i doubt it. 

As i posted above, this does not need to be the action that gets us as Scottish football supporters what we need. Crystal palace fans ran a successful campaign in England without boycotting. We hope to replicate their success whilst similarly not planning any actions supporters would not buy into. 

 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/44850888

Comparing Scotland to England on this issue makes no sense and has no validity.

Either there is serious appetite for change or there is not. If there is, the current action is insufficient and clubs will ignore it.

[Squirrelhumper]

1 hour ago, yoda said:

County are, in theory at least, selling restricted view tickets for £27.

So were Killie but if I'm paying over the odds, I'm not paying £3 less for a shite view!

[Guest JTS98]

4 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

I don't think this strike would work completely. The three biggest rip-off merchants in the league are Celtic, Hearts and Rangers, and those are also the clubs which rely least on away support. The likely outcome of an away boycott would be that the smaller clubs would feel forced to lower their prices, but the bigger clubs might not be so bothered. For anything like this to work, it needs home supporters to act too.

I see that argument, but we've also seen plenty of clubs do like-for-like deals before. Hearts have had plenty with other clubs over the years.

Also, public pressure becomes an issue when the ball starts rolling and other clubs win friends by bringing down their prices. People's game, community links, blah blah.

Motherwell play Celtic in front of an empty away end at Fir Park. Motherwell shit themselves and agree to twenty quid on the proviso that Celtic reciprocate. How do Celtic say no to that and upset their fanbase? Especially when the loss to Celtic wouldn't be too significant. It would put Celtic in a tough spot.

Edited September 30, 2019 by JTS98

[Squirrelhumper]

2 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

I don't think this strike would work completely. The three biggest rip-off merchants in the league are Celtic, Hearts and Rangers, and those are also the clubs which rely least on away support. The likely outcome of an away boycott would be that the smaller clubs would feel forced to lower their prices, but the bigger clubs might not be so bothered. For anything like this to work, it needs home supporters to act too.

Agreed and TBH, a support moaning about prices then falling over themselves to pay £52 for Ibrox aren't going to get anywhere with protests. Only way clubs will listen if fans don't pay it and with the introduction of CCS etc and loyalty points, then it's a non starter.

[BC1888]

6 minutes ago, JTS98 said:

I'm fully with you on this issue but I question the tactics being used.

Firstly, while I understand the televised games being seen as a good place to start, a bit of self-awareness and understanding would have led the group involved to understand two things. Firstly, Celtic fans aren't particularly well-liked and many people are ready to disagree with you about anything. Secondly, Celtic's horrendous pricing and general treatment of away supporters was always likely to end up with other supporters shouting you down. Rightly or wrongly, that was always going to happen and the organisers of this protest's failure to see that has damaged your impact.

Secondly, your Palace comparison falls down when you consider that last season they received £111.1m  in tv revenue. They'll have raked in a fortune more in sponsorship etc. It's completely futile to use the same tactics to bring about change at Scottish Premiership clubs. Palace are less likely to take much convincing to win some easy good publicity and improve relations with the community. Scottish clubs need to be bullied a bit.

For that reason, unless you actively stop attending, then this whole protest is a waste of time. See my chip shop comparison above. As long as you're paying, they're going to keep putting the prices up. Why would they do anything else?

Your own club are actually a great place to start. As by far the richest club in the country,  they could easily take the lead on this and bring down away ticket prices to £20 without suffering too much. Away ticket revenue is a much smaller deal to Celtic than it is to Motherwell, for example. If Celtic did this, this would give them a position where they could try to negotiate like-for-like deals with other clubs to benefit their own supporters.

Like I said, I agree with you completely. But I think your tactics are doomed to failure.

Just noticed this post after i replied to your other, so apologies as i replied RE palace when you have went into detail about it on this post. 

We completely agree with you RE protesting our own club. We will be the first to admit the price at Celtic park is scandalous and it is widely viewed as the worst experience in Scotland. All i can say for this is simply watch this space. We had to start somewhere, and a simple small banner at Hamilton was circulated round by the BBC and similarly after our display V Hibs we have been contacted by a couple outlets to discuss further and have something published.

As for the fans point this is something we understand only too well. In fact i'll be the first to say there isn't a club in Scotland outwith Celtic who i have even a smidgen of positivity about. However, i am also adult enough to know when somethings not right, and being charge £32/30 pound per ticket isn't right for anyone and would hope, even if out of pure selfishness for their own pocket, that this is something other fans can get on board with. 

The TV deal with them is perhaps the only reason the league decided to cap it, again would be hard to argue with you there. However, it gives us a couple avenues to go down in terms of Scotland, and its avenues we will venture down. We can both pull up clubs for the pricing, but also the league for forcing the prices with underselling our game. 

Perhaps as you say, it is doomed to fail. But i can tell you i would much rather put everything we have into it and fail than sit back and let the increasing prices happen every season and do f**k all about it other than pay the money and have a moan to my mates. As i mentioned previously, this is just the beginning of our campaign and we will learn as the days and weeks and protests/displays pass and hopefully we will start to see other clubs follow our lead. This isnt a single club issue, and we wont be able to make a difference without the support of other fan bases. 

[BC1888]

5 minutes ago, JTS98 said:

I see that argument, but we've also seen plenty of clubs do like-for-like deals before. Hearts have had plenty with other clubs over the years.

Also, public pressure becomes an issue when the ball starts rolling and other clubs win friends by bringing down their prices. People's game, community links, blah blah.

Motherwell play Celtic in front of an empty away end at Fir Park. Motherwell shit themselves and agree to twenty quid on the proviso that Celtic reciprocate. How do Celtic say no to that and upset their fanbase? Especially when the loss to Celtic wouldn't be too significant. It would put Celtic in a tough spot.

As said, i couldnt agree more. In fact it was the first thing we spoke about when planning. However, it just wouldnt work the Celtic support and really isnt a viable option unfortunately. For it to work we would need all current hardcore to agree to take their tickets for the game (Paying the price were protesting) then not going. 

I wish it was as simple, but there are too many Celtic fans who have only recently started attending who would take the opportunity to boost their records and f**k the whole thing. 

[Guest JTS98]

1 minute ago, BC1888 said:

This isnt a single club issue, and we wont be able to make a difference without the support of other fan bases. 

This is the key point for me and this is why most people consider the campaign to have had such a poorly-judged start.

Anyway, I hope it works, but I doubt it will.

 

[BC1888]

2 minutes ago, JTS98 said:

This is the key point for me and this is why most people consider the campaign to have had such a poorly-judged start.

Anyway, I hope it works, but I doubt it will.

 

Can see this point, but we thought the risk of some poor first impressions was outweighed by getting a decent media response and as with the previous post we feel vindicated with the BBC post and current communication we have received. All we can hope for is the plans we have for this month at Celtic park will put the ill feelings to bed and we are extremely positive about these and looking forward to it. The communication from the likes of yourself and other supporters is key and can only thank you for getting involved in the discussion and giving us something else to think about. 

[LondonHMFC]

The reason the EPL went to a maximum of £30 for away fans, is purely down to the fact that fans make up next to f**k all of the income clubs receive. 

You hit the nail on the head in regards to Celtic, as soon as one fan drops out, someone else will take their place. Rangers would face the same issue. 

Would lowering the price of away tickets see a surge in travelling fans? I honestly doubt it. You might have a slight rise, but on the whole, it would remain much and such. As well as high priced tickets, Scottish football fans have to deal with shite transport links, relatively poor policing, ridiculous kick off times and often a shite product at the end of it. 

 

 

[Ye Olde Hamiltonian]

After a couple of decent results for Accies,was tempted to go to Ibrox until I saw the prices for next weekend,so Hesgoals.com it will be for most- unless they buy the reduced price tickets which are also a rip off.

One of my neighbours-Celtic Season Book holder of many years- was telling me Saturday cost him £32.This madness must stop and it doesn't help when idiots on Social Media lambast small away supports from whatever team without looking at WHY many fans refuse to pay those prices and don't travel.

A boycott by Old Firm away fans sadly for them won't work as there are too many idiots who would jump in and pay the prices.

Perhaps if this campaign fails it may be time in the future to think of more extreme measures but that is a conversation for way in the future.

 

 

[Empty It]

If we all charge Sevco and Sellick £50 a ticket at every away game then prices could be easily dropped for everyone else, win/win situation if you ask me.

[Green Day]

3 hours ago, Ye Olde Hamiltonian said:

One of my neighbours was telling me Saturday cost him £32.

It is outrageous, but until Scottish football fills the funding gap with sponsors then its us that will pay.

And that £20s plenty campaign is all very well (I would love to see it) but that means all clubs would have to massively reduce their ST costs for home fans, which doesnt really address the funding gap..............

[BC1888]

New Article up on The Atheltic from Kieran Devlin Regarding the campaign. Pay per month website so incoming long post with the article for anyone interested. 

Before Celtic were held to their 1-1 draw away to Hibs on Saturday, a section of the Celtic support – the fan group Bhoys – displayed a “Twenty’s Plenty” banner, with parts of the stand also peppered by smaller banners featuring the 20mph road sign being elbowed by a pound symbol.

It was a protest against rising away ticket prices in the SPFL and marked a continuation from Celtic’s previous away game in the league, at Hamilton, where the same group of supporters presented an “overcharging the fans/underselling the game” banner.

The protests both attracted support and provoked criticism from fans of other Scottish clubs. Some agreed with its fundamental message, while others took umbrage with the context around it; essentially contending that the Celtic support should get their own house in order and condemn their own club before condemning others, given Celtic have the most expensive away admittance in the league, with restricted view tickets in excess of £30.

On Monday, Bhoys took to Instagram to clarify the campaign’s objective and address the apparent loss in translation: “Football fans in Scotland are forced to continue to pay ever rising ticket prices. Yesterday, Celtic fans were charged £32 for the away match at Hibs.

“We will continue to push for a drop in ticket prices for ALL supporters and would encourage fans of ALL teams to lobby their clubs to force a change for the better.”

Despite the statement, discord and accusations of hypocrisy continued. In an email to The Athletic, Bhoys outlined the campaign’s ambitions in more detail.

“(Celtic’s) first away game at Motherwell was £30, and the first side to visit us at Celtic Park (St Johnstone) were to be charged £32 and £30 for restricted view tickets. In our opinion, pricing tickets for the product on show at £25 or £26 was already an unreasonable financial demand on supporters, never mind hiking costs every season.

“When considering the poor public transport system across the country and the price of public travel, your total matchday cost suddenly bypasses the £50 mark.

“We have various plans for the rest of the season, including displays at Celtic Park against our own club’s pricing for visiting supporters. There has been some blowback from fans of other clubs because the (displays) have taken place at away grounds and, unfortunately, have been taken out of context as individual criticism of these two clubs about their pricing for Celtic fans only. We had to start somewhere and concluded the best option was these two televised fixtures.

“We, the supporters, are our national game’s biggest asset. We cannot stress enough that the campaign is on behalf of all Scottish football fans, across all divisions, who are having their pockets dipped by our leagues and clubs. We are hopeful that supporters of other clubs will join us in our campaign and we can make a difference to pricing.”

Although the wealth disparity between Scottish, English and Welsh football is great, with the unavoidable issue of TV money hanging over any points of comparison, there are instructive parallels from down south, with Bhoys saying they’ve been “buoyed by the successes” of a similar campaign in England.

Michael Brunskill of the Football Supporters’ Association (previously the Football Supporters’ Federation, which merged with Supporters Direct last year), has seen all the partisan bickering before.

He participated in his organisation’s own Twenty’s Plenty For Away Tickets campaign for England and Wales, and recognises the suspicion dividing club fan bases — and the message being lost among the noise — from the original campaign’s own early travails.

“It was important to communicate with each other,” Brunskill says, “Between the different fan groups, to prevent resentment, to reach an understanding that fans don’t set the prices and to have a united front.”

The success of Twenty’s Plenty stemmed from putting aside tribal loyalties to focus on the bigger picture and the shared injustice being imposed by those from above; the pricing out of the average football fan from the game they love.

“Tickets at big clubs can be really expensive but fans themselves of big clubs aren’t rich,” Brunskill argues. “Manchester City may be run by billionaires but a normal fan who lives two miles from the Etihad isn’t rich. It’s not his fault. Everyone was in the same boat.”

The campaign, which began in January 2013, called on supporters from all levels of English and Welsh football to lobby clubs to reward the passionate support of away fans with a blanket £20 cap on away ticket prices. The emphasis was on inclusivity and uniformity, to not limit attention to the Premier League’s biggest culprits but focus it on every club asking too much from fans who’d already invested a significant amount of money, and time, into the trip.

“There’d been a lot of discussion about fans and ticket prices for a while,” Brunskill says, “In the Premier League but also beyond it, in the Championship and below. Large numbers of Championship supporters were getting mugged off.”

Given the rise in fan costs wasn’t exclusive relating to away tickets but also home tickets, food and drink, and perhaps most gallingly for impact on the wallet, rail travel, there was some debate over whether focusing on away ticket prices was the best approach, which Brunskill freely admits.

“It wasn’t an overnight success, there were lots of obstacles, and a lot of disagreements as well. Some fans maybe thought the price cap wasn’t the way to go – some thought each fan group targeting their own team and home tickets was best, or going for subsidised travel – whatever benefits we could get.

“We felt there was a gap for away fans to push through,” Brunskill continues, “that it was a more efficient way of lobbying clubs. When you’re a supporter of your own club, you’re critical of them and their pricing but it’s different – you’re paying for home ticket prices and it’s a different thing lobbying against your own club than for others, especially since you’re the only ones doing it.

“What we found, and it was a steep learning curve, was that it was useless trying to direct it at the league generally or at teams just when your own club is playing that team. It was better directing it one at a time through different fan groups. I felt there was an opportunity for us to act on it, and in a way taking on the clubs one by one through lobbying was better as it focussed us.”

The campaign was effectively a war on all fronts.

As well as protests inside the stadium, they staged marches and walk-outs, including a march on the Premier League offices in August 2014 under the banner “affordable football for all”. They publicised the campaign and the extortionate specifics, including Arsenal’s £62 tickets at the Emirates for a game against Manchester City in January 2013 in print and radio media, spread the message across fan bases via social media, blogs and fanzines, and utilised guerrilla tactics with relentless phone-calls and emails to people inside the clubs.

“We started emailing campaigns,” Brunskill says. “We found that was a way to get past the spam folder. We had board members with their emails clogged. They couldn’t find the email from an agent about a new striker because their email was so full of fans complaining about ticket prices.”

Brunskill is keen to stress that there isn’t a simplistic ‘good vs evil’ narrative at play here, that money-hungry executives aren’t hell-bent on squeezing fans for every penny they have. There are many within clubs who are sympathetic to the cause.

“It’s also useful having good contacts inside the club, because every club will have people who relate and understand the message and are supportive. There are good people who understand the money issues most fans deal with.

Some clubs even started away fans schemes, where they dedicated resources to supporting away fans in whatever way they can.”

Gradually, clubs such as Norwich and Swansea agreed to self-enforce away ticket caps, and one by one, the momentum behind the campaign snowballed. Others offered reciprocal pricing arrangements, including Cardiff, Derby and Liverpool.

The Liverpool fans’ group Spirit of Shankly, which campaigned separately from the FSF but with corresponding sentiments, adopted one of the axioms of Celtic’s European Cup-winning manager Jock Stein for a protest walk-out against rising season ticket prices: “football is nothing without fans”.

More than an inspirational one-liner for Facebook cover photos, it captured the defiance of both the Spirit of Shankly and the FSF campaigns, the indelible certainty and absolute truth that the business of football is in service to the interests of fans, and not vice versa. Implicit in the line is the sense of collective: “fans.” Meaning all fans. Every fan.

In March 2016, it was announced that at the start of the 2016-17 season, away ticket prices would be capped at £30 for top-flight fans for the next three seasons. Although some argue that the Premier League’s lucrative £5 billion TV deal at the time greased the wheels of the cap’s enforcement, and point out it was still £10 above what the campaign demanded. There was also no agreed cap for the Football League.

Yet, the legwork was only done, and the cap achieved, because fans grouped together to affect change.

“It wasn’t quite £20 but it was nice getting that cap,” Brunskill argues. “The most important thing was persistence and unity, and over time, the Premier League did listen and there were some executives that realised fans were more than just part of the balance sheets.

“In a way, it’s about picking your battles because this ticket price cap is only a small reduction in costs for a full day or weekend trip, but one that means a lot.”

It was announced in February of this year that the £30 cap that the FSF helped bring in would be extended for another three seasons.

Meanwhile, in August, UEFA agreed to cap away tickets for the Champions League and Europa League this current season, a maximum of 70 euros and 45 euros respectively. The decision stemmed from protests galvanised by Manchester United fans being asked to cough up £100 for tickets to the away leg of their Champions League quarter-final against Barcelona last season.

There are many precedents proving Bhoys’ campaign can force change, and grassroots action appears the most viable vehicle for confronting the disparity between fans’ disposable incomes and ticket costs.

Though the UK’s real wages – salaries adjusted for inflation – have shown a marginal increase in 2019, that has arrived after more than a decade of wage stagnation, during which time the cost of match tickets has outpaced the salaries of ordinary football fans.

In 2011, according to the BBC’s annual Price of Football study, the average cheapest season ticket in the Scottish top-flight was £228.91, compared to £302.42 in 2017. Likewise, the average cheapest away ticket was £18.92 in 2011, and £22.83 in 2017. With the 2019 Price of Football findings due later this year, the increases since 2017 are expected to be high.

The Price of Football survey has on multiple occasions over the past 10 years recorded that UK ticket prices have grown at double the rate of the cost of living.

Bhoys’ Twenty’s Plenty Campaign is intended to address this unfairness but as Brunskill advises, for it to succeed it needs an agreed message across all of Scottish football, and an agreed plan for collective action. Nothing positive can happen without Scottish fan groups deciding on a united front.

“Fans of different teams have to stick together,” he asserts, “because if you do get into the ground or are facing executives, it’s important to have a clear, together message.

“It’s really important fans don’t splinter.

Solidarity is the best thing to have on your side.”

 

[andrewh]

It’s isn’t only the price that’s off putting.

[Melanius Mullarkey]

4 minutes ago, andrewh said:

It’s isn’t only the price that’s off putting.

Aye, the smell is pretty bad as well.

[BC1888]

Saturday saw the continuation of our campaign to lower ticket prices for all fans across Scottish football. This time we took to our own stands to highlight some of the absurd prices fans had to pay and called on our club to "set the trend" when it comes to making ticket prices affordable and inclusive for everyone across the country. 

We will continue to protest our own club, other clubs and the SFA/SPFL at future games and call on the support of other clubs to join in and do the same. 

[DukDukGoose]

46 minutes ago, BC1888 said:

Saturday saw the continuation of our campaign to lower ticket prices for all fans across Scottish football. This time we took to our own stands to highlight some of the absurd prices fans had to pay and called on our club to "set the trend" when it comes to making ticket prices affordable and inclusive for everyone across the country. 

We will continue to protest our own club, other clubs and the SFA/SPFL at future games and call on the support of other clubs to join in and do the same. 

What are we charging you this weekend?

[Squirrelhumper]

1 hour ago, BC1888 said:

Saturday saw the continuation of our campaign to lower ticket prices for all fans across Scottish football. This time we took to our own stands to highlight some of the absurd prices fans had to pay and called on our club to "set the trend" when it comes to making ticket prices affordable and inclusive for everyone across the country. 

We will continue to protest our own club, other clubs and the SFA/SPFL at future games and call on the support of other clubs to join in and do the same. 

Fair play