Highland Pyramid

[Cyclizine]

I think one thing that has made it difficult is that the Highland League entered the pyramid intact as one of the Tier 5 leagues, unlike having been created via applications like the Lowland League. The original SFA plan was for two new north and south regional leagues, into which the Highland, East of Scotland and South of Scotland Leagues would have initially fed. Since the Highland League lobbied to enter as the north feeder, it meant than unlike in the south, there was no ready-made level below them for new teams to enter.

However, I can see why the Highland League wanted to enter intact as they would have been decimated had this happened. It would have been difficult to see where any other teams in a north division would have come from apart from the Highland League, given the North and Tayside juniors were uninterested from the outset and I couldn't imagine any of the North Caley clubs would have been keen either.

I think the pragmatic approach now is that the North Juniors and North Caledonian League become official pyramid leagues so that teams are able to get licenced and that the bottom of the Highland League becomes a relegation slot if there is a licenced champion below. Realistically, I don't imagine there'll be a whole lot of movement in the short to medium term.

This obviously doesn't answer the question of where Tayside juniorclubs go, but really it's up to them to decide what they do: join NRJFA, apply to EoSFL, apply to HFL, lobby for a new league, stay outwith the pyramid...

Edited February 14, 2021 by Cyclizine

[FairWeatherFan]

33 minutes ago, Cyclizine said:

However, I can see why the Highland League wanted to enter intact as they would have been decimated had this happened. It would have been difficult to see where any other teams in a north division would have come from apart from the Highland League, given the North and Tayside juniors were uninterested from the outset and I couldn't imagine any of the North Caley clubs would have been keen either.

Like you say this is one of the main reasons why the 10 team Regional Division idea never went further than the initial discussions with the leagues. Also why the SFA deserves the lion share of the blame for not trying to create a pyramid beyond Tier 5.

Could the SFA have found 20 clubs to fill those slots absolutely. From a North perspective it would have seen the HL probably lose 10 clubs as they already had more than that licenced, plus they'd all be applying for fear of what would be left behind. With the North Juniors tacked on at Tier 6 there would be no incentive from them to apply to the remnant HL. So the HL might have been drawn into a halfhearted merger with the NCL since they were down to 6 real clubs. Which wouldn't be the most attractive proposition to the HL clubs from the Grampian side of things.

33 minutes ago, Cyclizine said:

I think the pragmatic approach now is that the North Juniors and North Caledonian League become official pyramid leagues so that teams are able to get licenced and that the bottom of the Highland League becomes a relegation slot if there is a licenced champion below. Realistically, I don't imagine there'll be a whole lot of movement in the short to medium term.

I hope this happens this summer at the very least. Regardless of what happens with Tayside it has the chance to be a positive change. Preferably the HL don't pull something like say capping things at 18 or 20 before relegation kicks in. Simply switching out BoD for Fort William would be a net positive. 35 years in the Highland League and Fort WIlliam have never made it to the Top 10.

Strathspey Thistle never made it into the North Superleague. Suggesting there are some stronger sides to be added from the North Juniors, just a case of pursuing licencing.

[Whitburn Vale]

2 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Like you say this is one of the main reasons why the 10 team Regional Division idea never went further than the initial discussions with the leagues. Also why the SFA deserves the lion share of the blame for not trying to create a pyramid beyond Tier 5.

Could the SFA have found 20 clubs to fill those slots absolutely. From a North perspective it would have seen the HL probably lose 10 clubs as they already had more than that licenced, plus they'd all be applying for fear of what would be left behind. With the North Juniors tacked on at Tier 6 there would be no incentive from them to apply to the remnant HL. So the HL might have been drawn into a halfhearted merger with the NCL since they were down to 6 real clubs. Which wouldn't be the most attractive proposition to the HL clubs from the Grampian side of things.

I hope this happens this summer at the very least. Regardless of what happens with Tayside it has the chance to be a positive change. Preferably the HL don't pull something like say capping things at 18 or 20 before relegation kicks in. Simply switching out BoD for Fort William would be a net positive. 35 years in the Highland League and Fort WIlliam have never made it to the Top 10.

Strathspey Thistle never made it into the North Superleague. Suggesting there are some stronger sides to be added from the North Juniors, just a case of pursuing licencing.

Strathspey were added purely on a geographical basis,which I can see why the HFL let them in,as it's a Highland club and they already had plenty of shire/moray clubs.

IMO,  BoD would have been a better shout than Formartine,no argument about Turra getting in,great set up at the Haughs.

Cove rangers probably weren't wearing any idea of BOD being an HL side at the time of the last applications to join the HL !!!

 

Edited February 14, 2021 by Whitburn Vale

[true fan]

Highland pyramid? I dinnae Sphinx so

[Robert James]

On 14/02/2021 at 16:29, Cyclizine said:

I think one thing that has made it difficult is that the Highland League entered the pyramid intact as one of the Tier 5 leagues, unlike having been created via applications like the Lowland League. The original SFA plan was for two new north and south regional leagues, into which the Highland, East of Scotland and South of Scotland Leagues would have initially fed. Since the Highland League lobbied to enter as the north feeder, it meant than unlike in the south, there was no ready-made level below them for new teams to enter.

However, I can see why the Highland League wanted to enter intact as they would have been decimated had this happened. It would have been difficult to see where any other teams in a north division would have come from apart from the Highland League, given the North and Tayside juniors were uninterested from the outset and I couldn't imagine any of the North Caley clubs would have been keen either.

I think the pragmatic approach now is that the North Juniors and North Caledonian League become official pyramid leagues so that teams are able to get licenced and that the bottom of the Highland League becomes a relegation slot if there is a licenced champion below. Realistically, I don't imagine there'll be a whole lot of movement in the short to medium term.

This obviously doesn't answer the question of where Tayside juniorclubs go, but really it's up to them to decide what they do: join NRJFA, apply to EoSFL, apply to HFL, lobby for a new league, stay outwith the pyramid...

 

The North Caley League clubs voted in favour of joining the pyramid, but the North Juniors were at best ' indifferent'.  After the covid lockdown ends, there will be further discussions IMO,  especially  now that the SJFA is in meltdown.. 

Does it really matter that the Highland & Lowland Leagues are at the same pyramid tier, as the two champion clubs both participate in the SPFL relegation/promotion playoff ? Only ONE champion club can win and participate in the SPFL playoff final.

Tayside clubs  need to decide (vote) as to whether or not they want to be in the Lowland or Highland region., assuming the clubs want to be "'senior".  If the decision is split, each group should form separate  senior pyramid leagues at Tier 6, either under the umbrella of the SLFL or the HFL.. Thereafter the pyramid will evolve over time, with the clubs making the decision which suits them best.

The  other alternative, is that the residual junior clubs in the East/Midland region, join the local amateur leagues.

 

[vikingTON]

Do other clubs get the right to decide by vote on which region to compete in as well? Looking forward to the Greenock Morton phoenix club (once the current owners drive the current one into the ground) exercising its right to self-determination and joining the North Caley League then.

Edited February 24, 2021 by vikingTON

[Burnieman]

13 hours ago, Robert James said:

Tayside clubs  need to decide (vote) as to whether or not they want to be in the Lowland or Highland region., assuming the clubs want to be "'senior".

 

They dont get to decide.

[Robert James]

20 hours ago, Burnieman said:

They dont get to decide.

Of course the clubs don't have the power to decide. But if they did vote on their preferred outcome, it may produce an outcome which could be used as a "lobby" fior the future, eg :

* lowland senior (i) EoSL  OR   (ii) become an additional Tier 6 Midland League

*Highland senior (i) realign with North Juniors   OR   (ii) become an independent Tier 6 North Midland League

*Stay Junior

*Realign with the amateur leagues .  

Even a split outcome would be interesting/important, as it MAY help resolve the 'impasse (?).

[Robert James]

On 14/02/2021 at 17:22, FairWeatherFan said:

Like you say this is one of the main reasons why the 10 team Regional Division idea never went further than the initial discussions with the leagues. Also why the SFA deserves the lion share of the blame for not trying to create a pyramid beyond Tier 5.

Could the SFA have found 20 clubs to fill those slots absolutely. From a North perspective it would have seen the HL probably lose 10 clubs as they already had more than that licenced, plus they'd all be applying for fear of what would be left behind. With the North Juniors tacked on at Tier 6 there would be no incentive from them to apply to the remnant HL. So the HL might have been drawn into a halfhearted merger with the NCL since they were down to 6 real clubs. Which wouldn't be the most attractive proposition to the HL clubs from the Grampian side of things.

I hope this happens this summer at the very least. Regardless of what happens with Tayside it has the chance to be a positive change. Preferably the HL don't pull something like say capping things at 18 or 20 before relegation kicks in. Simply switching out BoD for Fort William would be a net positive. 35 years in the Highland League and Fort WIlliam have never made it to the Top 10.

Strathspey Thistle never made it into the North Superleague. Suggesting there are some stronger sides to be added from the North Juniors, just a case of pursuing licencing.

Yes reaching a conclusion during this summer, would be beneficial to all clubs, and help to provide an integrated pyramid.

It would not be necessary to relegate Fort, as relegation/promotion, would kick in at the end of the second year for NCL & North Juniors at Tier 6, assuming their champion clubs are licensed by year 2 (or whenever there after).  By the way, the HFL clubs wiill NOT kick out Fort William, but over time they would be relegated anyway (based on history). . 

[St-ow!]

This is more relevant to the earlier discussion about dividing our football into a couple of regions, but I enjoyed this article on the i news website about the English experience of the same.

https://inews.co.uk/sport/league-one-two-north-south-sunderland-portsmouth-ipswich-efl-421509

It seems to cover most of the issues that I've seen debated on P+B. 

(And keep an eye out for Coventry.)

[Spyro]

4 hours ago, St-ow! said:

This is more relevant to the earlier discussion about dividing our football into a couple of regions, but I enjoyed this article on the i news website about the English experience of the same.

https://inews.co.uk/sport/league-one-two-north-south-sunderland-portsmouth-ipswich-efl-421509

It seems to cover most of the issues that I've seen debated on P+B. 

(And keep an eye out for Coventry.)

And then you have Gloucester City playing in the Conference North (National League North).

It’s a silly idea especially in Scotland where the tier 5 split after a few seasons will be straight through the middle of the central belt. I don’t think teams like East Stirlingshire are going to be chuffed playing in a “North” league and travelling 100’s of miles while Linlithgow play in the “South” league!

The English system looks good in paper but simply doesn’t work, we should be looking at the German system and adapting that to suit our own circumstances 

[FairWeatherFan]

49 minutes ago, Spyro said:

And then you have Gloucester City playing in the Conference North (National League North).

It’s a silly idea especially in Scotland where the tier 5 split after a few seasons will be straight through the middle of the central belt. I don’t think teams like East Stirlingshire are going to be chuffed playing in a “North” league and travelling 100’s of miles while Linlithgow play in the “South” league!

The English system looks good in paper but simply doesn’t work, we should be looking at the German system and adapting that to suit our own circumstances 

This is why the SPFL Playoff boundary came into existence. The Highland League rather having something in place than nothing or being at the whims of the SPFL.

[St-ow!]

54 minutes ago, Spyro said:

And then you have Gloucester City playing in the Conference North (National League North).

It’s a silly idea especially in Scotland where the tier 5 split after a few seasons will be straight through the middle of the central belt. I don’t think teams like East Stirlingshire are going to be chuffed playing in a “North” league and travelling 100’s of miles while Linlithgow play in the “South” league!

The English system looks good in paper but simply doesn’t work, we should be looking at the German system and adapting that to suit our own circumstances 

Um - I'm ignorant of the German system, but when I originally came on P+B it was to promote just that type of split for Scotland at tier 3. Needless to say, I had my erse handed to me.

[Spyro]

20 minutes ago, St-ow! said:

Um - I'm ignorant of the German system, but when I originally came on P+B it was to promote just that type of split for Scotland at tier 3. Needless to say, I had my erse handed to me.

Lol you’ll learn!

The German system keeps the regional leagues in REGIONS rather than a random split wherever the numbers suit...

The more populous regions have more promotion spots available than the less populous areas. It’s not perfect but it’s a lot fairer than having less than 30% of the population having the same amount of promotion places than the other 70%... or even more if the Tayside teams go south

[invergowrie arab]

1 hour ago, Spyro said:

Lol you’ll learn!

The German system keeps the regional leagues in REGIONS rather than a random split wherever the numbers suit...

The more populous regions have more promotion spots available than the less populous areas. It’s not perfect but it’s a lot fairer than having less than 30% of the population having the same amount of promotion places than the other 70%... or even more if the Tayside teams go south

That's fine if you ever have more than 1 promotion spot. 

Personally I like automatic relegation and HL v LL for promotion and then  HL/LL loser v LL runner up to play L2 9th but doubt L2 teams go for that 

[Spyro]

2 hours ago, invergowrie arab said:

That's fine if you ever have more than 1 promotion spot. 

Personally I like automatic relegation and HL v LL for promotion and then  HL/LL loser v LL runner up to play L2 9th but doubt L2 teams go for that 

Using the German example, you would have 2 relegation places then 1 automatic promotion spot for LL and a playoff between 1st in HL and 2nd in LL... or something like that. Good luck sorting that out though!

[Myles Offside]

19 hours ago, St-ow! said:

This is more relevant to the earlier discussion about dividing our football into a couple of regions, but I enjoyed this article on the i news website about the English experience of the same.

https://inews.co.uk/sport/league-one-two-north-south-sunderland-portsmouth-ipswich-efl-421509

It seems to cover most of the issues that I've seen debated on P+B. 

(And keep an eye out for Coventry.)

"Much as I like Gillingham, I don’t like going there on a Tuesday night"

Forgot to add "wet" to Tuesday night....

[Ranaldo Bairn]

2 hours ago, Myles Offside said:

Much as I like Gillingham, 

Nobody that's ever been to Gillingham would ever say this.

Fake news.

[edinabear]

Where would Aberdeen and ict colts join in the Highland league pyramid? 

[Oldster]

3 hours ago, edinabear said:

Where would Aberdeen and ict colts join in the Highland league pyramid? 

At the base? Same as with the Old Firm!