Highland Pyramid

[prodcast]

16 hours ago, Andy groundhopper said:

Only 2 leagues fight for the HL, whilst 4 battle for the LL, that shows there's some work to be done yet. Maybe one day we'll get HL, LL Div 2 ? Guess it all depends on the spfl and the trickle down from there, a definite up and down guaranteed must happen. Be good to have a large number  of clubs fighting to reach the 'Promised Land' 

There are many more clubs in the lowland catchment, so I'd be expecting more leagues there.

I think promotion playoffs address those imbalances, because the area with more clubs will tend to win them - but the possibility of the champions of the less populated area winning is always there. 

I agree that some relegation and promotion between levels is a must for it to be a pyramid.

11 hours ago, Robert James said:

 

The Highland League and the NCL have already agreed that the latter should be a feeder league at Tier 6, with promotion and relegation. This proposal was intended to include the North Juniors, as a parallel pyramid league, also at Tier 6. The proposal includes, a "play-off" between the champion club of each league, assuming both champions are licensed.

However, it now seems that there there are two camps within the North Juniors, about joining, or not joining, the pyramid, which has delayed the implementation of this proposal. 

As far as I am aware, there have not been any serious discussions, or proposals, regarding (north) Tayside Juniors becoming a third Highland regional pyramid league, at Tier 6.  Highland League support would be needed in the first instance, as it could be possible to have 3 separate Highland feeder leagues, with a 3 way play-off .  However this would require the north Tayside clubs to agree that 'heading north' is the only way ahead, which is unlikely at present, in my view.

 

 

Interesting reading. Sorry to hear about the divides in the north juniors, but they'll know best if the pyramid is for them or not.

I see Angus and Dundee are part of the SFA's East Region rather than North - some indication of how they're viewed in one respect; perhaps a precedent for inclusion in the lowland catchment. Or even a basis for being seen as a special case, given the apparent contradiction with North Tay simultaneously being north of the SFA pyramid's dividing line.

With pre-season suspended, it seems opportune to settle these issues - even if it means the EoS revisiting their tier 7 conferences to allow for a North Tay regional conference, from this season (the first step might be theirs).

[Baldie2k19]

17 hours ago, prodcast said:

sos vs wos and eos vs nt? Why should the wos get the "easy" game? Make more sense to have a 4 team round robin.

[Hampden Diehard]

On 13/08/2020 at 16:53, LongTimeLurker said:

It's easy to make a cheap jibe like that and pretend you are saying something profound. We are not talking about Tom Johnston and the SJFA here, but about people who are capable of behaving in a professional manner and who would otherwise be employable in a professional setting.

Firstly, I enjoy your comments, even if I don't agree with many of them, but to give the SFA the credit you do when I know of other situations they've had the chance to behave in a professional manner but haven't, I have to say, "Pish!".

[prodcast]

3 hours ago, Baldie2k19 said:

sos vs wos and eos vs nt? Why should the wos get the "easy" game? Make more sense to have a 4 team round robin.

I agree with you there.

I was trying to illustrate that each area (west, north and east) has a more remote district league that could be accommodated through play offs - rather than by being integrated into a larger West, East or North of Scotland League with the bulk of other clubs.

From that perspective l don't really blame north Tayside clubs for not applying to the EoS, since the conferences there merge all of the other districts together and so would require all the additional travel - similar to the earlier argument that NCL teams wouldn't want to play through an Aberdeenshire-dominated league, and SoS teams wouldn't want to play through a Glasgow-dominated league. 

It seems to me that North Tay could be treated in a similar way as the SoS and the NCL. Sitting as an independent district league at tier 6, it could promote alongside the WoS, EoS and SoS into the Lowland League.

Still having a hard time believing LL clubs rejected the Club 42 boundary scrappage on the basis of it possibly meaning one away game each to Brechin a season, though!

[FairWeatherFan]

36 minutes ago, prodcast said:

I agree with you there.

I was trying to illustrate that each area (west, north and east) has a more remote district league that could be accommodated through play offs - rather than by being integrated into a larger West, East or North of Scotland League with the bulk of other clubs.

From that perspective l don't really blame north Tayside clubs for not applying to the EoS, since the conferences there merge all of the other districts together and so would require all the additional travel - similar to the earlier argument that NCL teams wouldn't want to play through an Aberdeenshire-dominated league, and SoS teams wouldn't want to play through a Glasgow-dominated league. 

It seems to me that North Tay could be treated in a similar way as the SoS and the NCL. Sitting as an independent district league at tier 6, it could promote alongside the WoS, EoS and SoS into the Lowland League.

Still having a hard time believing LL clubs rejected the Club 42 boundary scrappage on the basis of it possibly meaning one away game each to Brechin a season, though!

When the PWG meetings started up again at the beginning of the 2018-19 season, a Tayside league possibly under the Lowland League (it was never quite clear) was something the EoSFL supported.

With the creation of a WoSFL, i'm not entirely sure it would be as favoured as an option. A 4-way playoff would mean adding additional games to the LL playoff unless two promotion spots were available. And if two promotion spots become available they will largely become two automatic spots for the WoSFL and EoSFL champions as the SoSFL has a poor history of providing a licenced champion.

[Robert James]

On 15/08/2020 at 15:47, prodcast said:

 

 

I suppose North Tay could be considered a special case on the basis of its remoteness from the bulk of clubs in the east, in the same way as the SoS in the West region and the NCL in the north.

As mentioned, NCL clubs wouldn't want to be playing through a league full of Aberdeenshire clubs, and the West juniors were never keen on playing through the SoS in order to reach the LL.

Maybe the LL's reticence on the Club 42 boundary scrapping, and the EoS FA's lack of mention of north Tay are evidence of that area being a special case in the east due to remoteness.

On that basis, since the NCL will have play off access at tier 6 to the HL by playing the best of the rest of the north, and the SoS will have play off access at tier 6 to the LL vs the best of the rest of the West, maybe North Tay should have play off access at tier 6 to the LL by playing against the best of the rest of the east.

It would rely on the play offs correcting the imbalances of district vs region, but would enable clubs to mostly stay in an environment that would suit them, and would complete that level of the pyramid.

Absolutely spot on.  

The key to completing the pyramid, is to recognise that not all of its feeder leagues have the same number of clubs, nor the same population size/density, nor the same travelling issues, given the geography of Scotland. The Scottish pyramid must be nationwide.

Promotion play-offs between the champions of each of the individual Tier 6  leagues, currently  EoSL, WoSL, SoSL, or the proposed NL, and (eventually ?) the North Juniors , provides a pathway to higher levels.  All clubs and fans have the right to dream, and be ambitious. Yes, 95% of the time, the bigger club, from the bigger league, will win a promotion play-off, against a club from an inferior league. However now and again, a small club will exceed its own ambitions and expectations, as Cove Rangers and Edinburgh City have.. 

From my own highland prospective, 25+ years ago, I would never have  envisaged that a small club like Brora Rangers, would be knocking on the door of the 'Scottish League'.  I also doubt if (at that time), the supporters of Kelty Hearts, ever expected to being doing likewise. 

[Andy groundhopper]

Just out of interest, would the Highland, Tayside debates be worse than the farce in England, Truro in the Southern Lge/Conf South - what a journey every week home and away - with Gloucester Inthe National North with those trips all the time ! So long as the NCL becomes a feeder into the HL, at least there's something there to aim for. 

[Stag Nation]

48 minutes ago, Robert James said:

Absolutely spot on.  

The key to completing the pyramid, is to recognise that not all of its feeder leagues have the same number of clubs, nor the same population size/density, nor the same travelling issues, given the geography of Scotland. The Scottish pyramid must be nationwide.

Promotion play-offs between the champions of each of the individual Tier 6  leagues, currently  EoSL, WoSL, SoSL, or the proposed NL, and (eventually ?) the North Juniors , provides a pathway to higher levels.  All clubs and fans have the right to dream, and be ambitious. Yes, 95% of the time, the bigger club, from the bigger league, will win a promotion play-off, against a club from an inferior league. However now and again, a small club will exceed its own ambitions and expectations, as Cove Rangers and Edinburgh City have.. 

From my own highland prospective, 25+ years ago, I would never have  envisaged that a small club like Brora Rangers, would be knocking on the door of the 'Scottish League'.  I also doubt if (at that time), the supporters of Kelty Hearts, ever expected to being doing likewise. 

I couldn't agree more. When I followed County 50+ years ago,  no-one could have imagined them in the Scottish league, let alone  the top tier. As for Brora ...

Any impartial obsevrer must see that it's better for the game as a whole for ambitious  clubs like Kelty or Brora (or even  - (controversy alert! )- BSC or Edusport - to replace the Albion Rovers of this world, who have bounced around the bottom for years with no sign of ambition. Experience in Englandshire shows that relegation often revitalises.the Albions of this world.

[FairWeatherFan]

20 minutes ago, Andy groundhopper said:

Just out of interest, would the Highland, Tayside debates be worse than the farce in England, Truro in the Southern Lge/Conf South - what a journey every week home and away - with Gloucester Inthe National North with those trips all the time ! So long as the NCL becomes a feeder into the HL, at least there's something there to aim for. 

By Scottish standards whatever happens with Tayside will eventually involve travel. The boundary line was basically drawn through the traditional  Tayside Junior region. So clubs are at either extreme of the Highland League or Lowland League.

[welshbairn]

30 minutes ago, Andy groundhopper said:

Just out of interest, would the Highland, Tayside debates be worse than the farce in England, Truro in the Southern Lge/Conf South - what a journey every week home and away - with Gloucester Inthe National North with those trips all the time ! So long as the NCL becomes a feeder into the HL, at least there's something there to aim for. 

I think in Scotland it's less about distance travelled and more about where clubs recruit their players from. Even the Elgin Chairman was saying he was terrified of getting demoted because all his best players come from the South West of Scotland. Presumably they travel up for home games and train in the central belt somewhere. A guy from a Tayside team was saying the same, referring specifically to the likes of Brechin, Montrose and Arbroath. Not sure what the answer is, but it clearly involves local academies and less reliance on importing talent on an unsustainable basis for part time clubs.

[Gordon EF]

1 hour ago, Stag Nation said:

I couldn't agree more. When I followed County 50+ years ago,  no-one could have imagined them in the Scottish league, let alone  the top tier. As for Brora ...

Any impartial obsevrer must see that it's better for the game as a whole for ambitious  clubs like Kelty or Brora (or even  - (controversy alert! )- BSC or Edusport - to replace the Albion Rovers of this world, who have bounced around the bottom for years with no sign of ambition. Experience in Englandshire shows that relegation often revitalises.the Albions of this world.

I'm absolutely for clubs being able to reach their level but let's not pretend that Brora are any more ambitious than Albion Rovers. Albion Rovers have been promoted twice in recent times whilst never having anywhere near the biggest budget in L2. Take Brora's money away from them and they'd be dottering around the bottom of the HL more likely to drop to tier 6 than move up to tier 4.

Edited August 16, 2020 by Gordon EF

[Hampden Diehard]

On 13/08/2020 at 16:53, LongTimeLurker said:

It's easy to make a cheap jibe like that and pretend you are saying something profound. We are not talking about Tom Johnston and the SJFA here, but about people who are capable of behaving in a professional manner and who would otherwise be employable in a professional setting.

Firstly, I enjoy your comments, even if I don't agree with many of them, but to give the SFA the credit you do when I know of other situations they've had the chance to behave in a professional manner but haven't, I have to say, "Pish!".

[LongTimeLurker]

1 hour ago, Gordon EF said:

....Albion Rovers have been promoted twice in recent times whilst never having anywhere near the biggest budget in L2...

Was that not assisted in part by financial windfalls from cup games against the Old Firm with a return to normal more recently when that dried up? For whatever reason Coatbridge doesn't get behind them to anything like the still relatively lukewarm extent people in Airdrie and Hamilton get behind their teams. No reason why they should have a league spot in perpetuity because of decisions made back in nineteen oatcake.

[Gordon EF]

52 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Was that not assisted in part by financial windfalls from cup games against the Old Firm with a return to normal more recently when that dried up? For whatever reason Coatbridge doesn't get behind them to anything like the still relatively lukewarm extent people in Airdrie and Hamilton get behind their teams. No reason why they should have a league spot in perpetuity because of decisions made back in nineteen oatcake.

They were promoted in 2011, reached a Scottish Cup QF against Rangers in 2014, won league 2  in 2015 and had a SC tie against Celtic in 2017 i believe. There's no doubt the money from those ties helped them be more competitive financially than they would otherwise have been. That's a totally different situation to Brora though.

I 100% agree that no club should be immune to dropping down the tiers on merit. Nothing I've ever said comes close to that. But the continual characterisation of clubs like Brora, Cove, Kelty, East Kilbride as just ambitious wee clubs looking to make their way up the leagues with sheer determination and a pocketful of dreams is utterly ludicrous.

Brora have as much right as anyone to a place in the SPFL but if they make it, it won't be because they've managed to find their 'natural level' in replacing "deadwood, unambitious" clubs like Albion Rovers. It'll be because someone is pumping money into them to inflate them well beyond their level.

[Robert James]

31 minutes ago, Gordon EF said:

They were promoted in 2011, reached a Scottish Cup QF against Rangers in 2014, won league 2  in 2015 and had a SC tie against Celtic in 2017 i believe. There's no doubt the money from those ties helped them be more competitive financially than they would otherwise have been. That's a totally different situation to Brora though.

I 100% agree that no club should be immune to dropping down the tiers on merit. Nothing I've ever said comes close to that. But the continual characterisation of clubs like Brora, Cove, Kelty, East Kilbride as just ambitious wee clubs looking to make their way up the leagues with sheer determination and a pocketful of dreams is utterly ludicrous.

Brora have as much right as anyone to a place in the SPFL but if they make it, it won't be because they've managed to find their 'natural level' in replacing "deadwood, unambitious" clubs like Albion Rovers. It'll be because someone is pumping money into them to inflate them well beyond their level.

Agreed. The best thing about the pyramid is that clubs rise and fall.

It will be interesting to see if north junior clubs Rothie Rovers and Nairn St Ninians,  have the ambition to look for pyramid membership ?

 

[welshbairn]

9 hours ago, Gordon EF said:

Brora have as much right as anyone to a place in the SPFL but if they make it, it won't be because they've managed to find their 'natural level' in replacing "deadwood, unambitious" clubs like Albion Rovers. It'll be because someone is pumping money into them to inflate them well beyond their level.

I think in Brora's case it's more about offering players well paying jobs outside football than just throwing money at it, though there's a bit of that as well.

[Gordon EF]

4 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

I think in Brora's case it's more about offering players well paying jobs outside football than just throwing money at it, though there's a bit of that as well.

Yeah, same with Kelty. All amounts to the same thing though.

[invergowrie arab]

14 hours ago, Stag Nation said:

I couldn't agree more. When I followed County 50+ years ago,  no-one could have imagined them in the Scottish league, let alone  the top tier. As for Brora ...

Any impartial obsevrer must see that it's better for the game as a whole for ambitious  clubs like Kelty or Brora (or even  - (controversy alert! )- BSC or Edusport - to replace the Albion Rovers of this world, who have bounced around the bottom for years with no sign of ambition. Experience in Englandshire shows that relegation often revitalises.the Albions of this world.

Having sugar daddies willing to fund/wash money in village teams =/= ambition 

[welshbairn]

12 minutes ago, Gordon EF said:

Yeah, same with Kelty. All amounts to the same thing though.

It's a bit more sustainable though.

[Jimmy Shaker]

Cove were entirely ambitious from the day they abandoned the Aberdeen amateurs. Where they are now is where they've wanted to be since they joined the Highland League in the 1980's.  Their natural level has never been the Highland League. A lot of things have gone their way in recent years but I'd not be classing them in the same category of club as Brora, Formartine, etc., who are nowt but works sides running entirely out of one mans pocket.

Were Brora to go up, those in the SHFL would certainly look forward to visits to Dudgeon Park in the future as they came back down. Cove? I don't think you'll never see them in the SHFL again. It'll be piss your pants funny if they ever have to mingle with the likes of us again, but I can't see it.