Highland Pyramid

[Cyclizine]

1 hour ago, prodcast said:

Would they both support being on a par with the Tayside clubs, all 3 areas being tier 6 feeders to the HL?

It seems to me that would be the consequence of the LL rejection of scrapping the HL-LL boundary, which has effectively blocked the EoS from folding the Tayside clubs in at, perhaps, tier 7.

Presumably, if that's what the Tayside clubs (and this is the point: they need to be the ones who make the call) decided. NCL and NRJFA Superleague will be Tier 6 if there is agreement. Three feeders to the HFL would mirror the LFL and keep the spreadsheet wielders happy with the symmetry. TFIC.

Edited August 15, 2020 by Cyclizine

[welshbairn]

1 hour ago, prodcast said:

Would they both support being on a par with the Tayside clubs, all 3 areas being tier 6 feeders to the HL?

 

Nobody in the Highland League, NCL, NRJFA or any of the Tayside clubs (AFAIK) has expressed any interest in this idea, I don't understand why people keep banging on about it. Not that I've have heard much hostility to the idea in the North either, it just hasn't been raised as an issue. Plenty hostility from Tayside though.

[Cyclizine]

57 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

The EoS just voted in Luncarty who are north of the line in terms of their registered ground. According to patriot, who is linked to St Andrews United, this was justified by stating that the Tay Bridge midpoint line of latitude boundary on registered ground location only applies to Club 42 and that there are no geographical limits on who can apply to the EoS subject to a vote by the existing membership.

Yes, everyone is aware of this as it's been discussed to death. As much as Luncarty's ground is above the magical line, there is still reason to believe the EoSFA felt they were a special case given the line cuts the village in two.

What we need to see us what happens if clubs like Broughty or Carnoustie apply and how the EoSFA react. Until then, it's still all speculation as to what will happen.

[Cyclizine]

3 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

Nobody in the Highland League, NCL, NRJFA or any of the Tayside clubs (AFAIK) has expressed any interest in this idea, I don't understand why people keep banging on about it. Not that I've have heard much hostility to the idea in the North either, it just hasn't been raised as an issue. Plenty hostility from Tayside though.

Yep. Tayside isn't being discussed in the North as there's no-one to discuss with. The HFL aren't going to reach out to Tayside clubs, given the hostility shown from some committees and the East Region. I feel I am a stuck record here, but it's down to the clubs to decide their future and see what happens if they decide to apply to one or other of the available options.

[prodcast]

39 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

Nobody in the Highland League, NCL, NRJFA or any of the Tayside clubs (AFAIK) has expressed any interest in this idea, I don't understand why people keep banging on about it. Not that I've have heard much hostility to the idea in the North either, it just hasn't been raised as an issue. Plenty hostility from Tayside though.

It may just be me who keeps banging on about it. My reason is that the Tayside clubs are above the magic line, so in theory they would be heading north if they were to enter the pyramid this season. But...

38 minutes ago, Cyclizine said:

Yes, everyone is aware of this as it's been discussed to death. As much as Luncarty's ground is above the magical line, there is still reason to believe the EoSFA felt they were a special case given the line cuts the village in two.

What we need to see us what happens if clubs like Broughty or Carnoustie apply and how the EoSFA react. Until then, it's still all speculation as to what will happen.

...in the same way, is there any prospect of the Tayside area being treated as the similarly-short-numbers SoS and so feeding in at lowland tier 6?

Or would they, if applying together, be treated as an additional EoS conference this season at tier7?

It would be good to have the main regional pieces in place together this season.

[welshbairn]

7 minutes ago, prodcast said:

It may just be me who keeps banging on about it.

I'm afraid not, mostly people from outside the area with a stauner for symmetrical patterns and the great Junior/Senior divide which nobody has really bothered about up here. 

[FairWeatherFan]

13 minutes ago, prodcast said:

It would be good to have the main regional pieces in place together this season.

Chances are they will be for 2021-22. With the uncertainty caused by COVID disrupting this season it should give time for the NCL & North Region to have things settled for 2021-22.

By April 2021 the EoSFL applications process will be closed and we'll know if Tayside/East Region clubs have bothered to apply.

[prodcast]

43 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

I'm afraid not, mostly people from outside the area with a stauner for symmetrical patterns and the great Junior/Senior divide which nobody has really bothered about up here. 

That describes me quite well! But horses for co'rses, rather than pyramid symmetry.

40 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Chances are they will be for 2021-22. With the uncertainty caused by COVID disrupting this season it should give time for the NCL & North Region to have things settled for 2021-22.

By April 2021 the EoSFL applications process will be closed and we'll know if Tayside/East Region clubs have bothered to apply.

Yep. Was just trying to work out the possible outcomes for them, depending upon where they apply (if they do). If it was me, I'd like to have a decent idea what I was in for under various scenarios before acting; the pyramid over the years has been pretty confusing with the various permutations. 

I think applying together to be an EoS conference at tier7 this season would be a good fit for them.

[FairWeatherFan]

1 minute ago, prodcast said:

That describes me quite well! But horses for co'rses, rather than pyramid symmetry.

Yep. Was just trying to work out the possible outcomes for them, depending upon where they apply (if they do). If it was me, I'd like to have a decent idea what I was in for under various scenarios before acting; the pyramid over the years has been pretty confusing with the various permutations. 

I think applying together to be an EoS conference at tier7 this season would be a good fit for them.

The EoSFL this year will be using their First Division Conferences to form First and Second Divisions. Clubs applying would be going for Tier 8.

[Marten]

4 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

What's your source for the assertion that Option Z was included at the request of the SJFA? Are you aware of the extent to which the SPFL is represented on the SFA board:

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/43410242

https://www.scottishfa.co.uk/scottish-fa/organisation/strategy-structure/who-we-are/board-committees/

Senior SPFL people are present at SFA board meetings, so the left hand inherently knows what the right hand is doing in this context. Consulting the SPFL isn't difficult when Neil Doncaster is sitting in on the SFA's internal decision making board meetings and both organisations have Hampden as their HQ. Note also how Brechin City are repesented by their chairman Ken Ferguson on the SFA's professional game board as one of the SPFL representatives.

SFJA wanted it included in the PWG discussions, minutes relating to that have been posted on here some time ago.

And knowing the SFA, I'd be very surprised if they spoke to the SPFL before the PWG meeting in which it was discussed. It seems common sense to do it, but the SFA have very little common sense.

Edited August 15, 2020 by Marten

[LongTimeLurker]

8 minutes ago, Marten said:

SFJA wanted it included in the PWG discussions, minutes relating to that have been posted on here some time ago.

I heard something different at the time from somebody closely involved in terms of it being Ian Maxwell's brainchild, but have an open mind on this as there were clearly competing agendas and narratives being pushed, which is why I only go as far as "seem".

Edited August 15, 2020 by LongTimeLurker

[prodcast]

6 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

The EoSFL this year will be using their First Division Conferences to form First and Second Divisions. Clubs applying would be going for Tier 8.

Oh well. From the EoS website statement on this season, it looked like there'd be scope for an additional conference before things settle down.

My next-best alternative, then, would be for Tayside to be treated as a special case as per the SoS, with play off access to the LL (which, generally, you wouldn't expect them to win through too often).

[LongTimeLurker]

Just now, prodcast said:

...My next-best alternative, then, would be for Tayside to be treated as a special case as per the SoS, with play off access to the LL (which, generally, you wouldn't expect them to win through too often).

You would need to get the SFA, LL, EoS, WoS and SoS to all sign off on that = good luck. Would be sensible if a lot of EoS clubs still don't want to do any travel midweek to the land of jam, jute and journalism and the HL prefers not to have them and stick to its traditional catchment, but it tends to be pragmatism and path of least resistance that wins the day on this stuff. Think they'll probably wind up in the EoS with a regionalised lower tier to keep them largely contained in Tayside but it's still by no means certain.

[Marten]

3 hours ago, Cyclizine said:

Yep. Tayside isn't being discussed in the North as there's no-one to discuss with. The HFL aren't going to reach out to Tayside clubs, given the hostility shown from some committees and the East Region. I feel I am a stuck record here, but it's down to the clubs to decide their future and see what happens if they decide to apply to one or other of the available options.

I don't think there are any real issues between Tayside & HL clubs, I know for a fact that there is a decent amount of contact between committee member, although I doubt the pyramid is discussed much in that. But the Tayside clubs don't want to travel to the HL clubs and from the idea I'm getting is that HL clubs don't really fancy the idea of reguler trips to Dundee and the surrounding area.

[Marten]

1 hour ago, prodcast said:

My next-best alternative, then, would be for Tayside to be treated as a special case as per the SoS, with play off access to the LL (which, generally, you wouldn't expect them to win through too often).

If a boundary change does get agreed, and it can't be ruled out, the LL are clearly out for concessions on it, but the SPFL & HFL seem to be quite happy to change it, that seems the most logical solution to me. You're right that Tayside clubs generally won't be favourites in the play-off, but the league is stronger than the SOS and I don't think it would be unlikeliy for the likes of Broughty Athletic & Lochee United to make the LL at some point (provinding both get a license), especially if relegation from the LL gets increased.

[welshbairn]

22 minutes ago, Marten said:

I don't think there are any real issues between Tayside & HL clubs, I know for a fact that there is a decent amount of contact between committee member, although I doubt the pyramid is discussed much in that. But the Tayside clubs don't want to travel to the HL clubs and from the idea I'm getting is that HL clubs don't really fancy the idea of reguler trips to Dundee and the surrounding area.

I didn't hear about any complaints from HL clubs about the possibility of travelling to Brechin next season, and fans were quite looking forward to it, myself included. But one trip down there a season is a lot different to integrating Tayside into the North Junior Superleague or some of the other whacky ideas. For Brechin most of the journeys would only have been an hour or 2, and Wick's only once a year.

Edited August 15, 2020 by welshbairn

[prodcast]

1 hour ago, LongTimeLurker said:

You would need to get the SFA, LL, EoS, WoS and SoS to all sign off on that = good luck. Would be sensible if a lot of EoS clubs still don't want to do any travel midweek to the land of jam, jute and journalism and the HL prefers not to have them and stick to its traditional catchment, but it tends to be pragmatism and path of least resistance that wins the day on this stuff. Think they'll probably wind up in the EoS with a regionalised lower tier to keep them largely contained in Tayside but it's still by no means certain.

 

28 minutes ago, Marten said:

If a boundary change does get agreed, and it can't be ruled out, the LL are clearly out for concessions on it, but the SPFL & HFL seem to be quite happy to change it, that seems the most logical solution to me. You're right that Tayside clubs generally won't be favourites in the play-off, but the league is stronger than the SOS and I don't think it would be unlikeliy for the likes of Broughty Athletic & Lochee United to make the LL at some point (provinding both get a license), especially if relegation from the LL gets increased.

 

20 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

I didn't hear about any complaints from HL clubs about the possibility of travelling to Brechin next season, and fans were quite looking forward to it, myself included. But one trip down there a season is a lot different to integrating Tayside into the North Junior Superleague or some of the other whacky ideas. 

I suppose North Tay could be considered a special case on the basis of its remoteness from the bulk of clubs in the east, in the same way as the SoS in the West region and the NCL in the north.

As mentioned, NCL clubs wouldn't want to be playing through a league full of Aberdeenshire clubs, and the West juniors were never keen on playing through the SoS in order to reach the LL.

Maybe the LL's reticence on the Club 42 boundary scrapping, and the EoS FA's lack of mention of north Tay are evidence of that area being a special case in the east due to remoteness.

On that basis, since the NCL will have play off access at tier 6 to the HL by playing the best of the rest of the north, and the SoS will have play off access at tier 6 to the LL vs the best of the rest of the West, maybe North Tay should have play off access at tier 6 to the LL by playing against the best of the rest of the east.

It would rely on the play offs correcting the imbalances of district vs region, but would enable clubs to mostly stay in an environment that would suit them, and would complete that level of the pyramid.

[prodcast]

[Andy groundhopper]

Only 2 leagues fight for the HL, whilst 4 battle for the LL, that shows there's some work to be done yet. Maybe one day we'll get HL, LL Div 2 ? Guess it all depends on the spfl and the trickle down from there, a definite up and down guaranteed must happen. Be good to have a large number  of clubs fighting to reach the 'Promised Land' 

[Robert James]

8 hours ago, prodcast said:

 

 

I suppose North Tay could be considered a special case on the basis of its remoteness from the bulk of clubs in the east, in the same way as the SoS in the West region and the NCL in the north.

As mentioned, NCL clubs wouldn't want to be playing through a league full of Aberdeenshire clubs, and the West juniors were never keen on playing through the SoS in order to reach the LL.

Maybe the LL's reticence on the Club 42 boundary scrapping, and the EoS FA's lack of mention of north Tay are evidence of that area being a special case in the east due to remoteness.

On that basis, since the NCL will have play off access at tier 6 to the HL by playing the best of the rest of the north, and the SoS will have play off access at tier 6 to the LL vs the best of the rest of the West, maybe North Tay should have play off access at tier 6 to the LL by playing against the best of the rest of the east.

It would rely on the play offs correcting the imbalances of district vs region, but would enable clubs to mostly stay in an environment that would suit them, and would complete that level of the pyramid.

 

The Highland League and the NCL have already agreed that the latter should be a feeder league at Tier 6, with promotion and relegation. This proposal was intended to include the North Juniors, as a parallel pyramid league, also at Tier 6. The proposal includes, a "play-off" between the champion club of each league, assuming both champions are licensed.

However, it now seems that there there are two camps within the North Juniors, about joining, or not joining, the pyramid, which has delayed the implementation of this proposal. 

As far as I am aware, there have not been any serious discussions, or proposals, regarding (north) Tayside Juniors becoming a third Highland regional pyramid league, at Tier 6.  Highland League support would be needed in the first instance, as it could be possible to have 3 separate Highland feeder leagues, with a 3 way play-off .  However this would require the north Tayside clubs to agree that 'heading north' is the only way ahead, which is unlikely at present, in my view.