Highland Pyramid

[LongTimeLurker]

42 minutes ago, cmontheloknow said:

....What the Senior clubs did may not have helped but I don't see it as some sort of pact to sink Junior involvement in the pyramid.

The driving force behind the pyramid was Alan McRae of Cove Rangers and he successfully worked his way up the greasy pole in SFA terms to a point where he was able to pull Stewart Regan's strings. The club that was pivotal in the south for pushing the Cove Rangers agenda was Spartans. Those two clubs wanted into the SPFL very badly and anything that they orchestrated was geared primarily towards that outcome rather than the pyramid concept.

Tom Johnston was probably viewed as a useful idiot from their standpoint. His actions made it easy to justify moves to actively exclude junior clubs from licensing and the Scottish Cup and generally keep the grade structure very much intact. That way Cove and Spartans had the inside track on promotion into the SPFL. Telling top west region clubs that their only way to get licensed was to join the SoS was really taking the piss.

Meanwhile back at the ranch, a chink in the armour emerged. The EoS was teetering on the verge of collapse in numbers terms and proved ripe for takeover by east region clubs with licensing ambitions that saw through Tom Johnston's 150k toilet block patter. Now Kelty, Bonnyrigg and Bo'ness being around make a Spartans SPFL promotion a longshot with the west soon to follow because Edinburgh City stole their thunder on being Embra's third club.  The best laid plans of mice and men...

Tayside has been royally shafted in all of this as they are now looking at tier 8 EoS entry after initially being generally assumed to not be EoS eligible. Hopefully the clubs concerned get to pursue Invergowrie Arab's option one when the time comes because don't hold your breath on HL clubs falling over themselves to endorse option two.

The NCL and north region are not much of a threat to the status quo, so no harm negotiating with them. Maybe swap Fort William for Banks o' Dee if SPFL relegation brought things up to 18 and the league was capped at that, basically. If the top Tayside junior clubs ever embraced a Highland League future there would be scope for a lot more to happen than that...

[Andy groundhopper]

Guessing the NCL crowds aren't expected to be great, anything over 30 is really good imo, going by the Highland geography then I'd say  200 would be a good figure to work with. Suppose the crowd income at these clubs depends on their expenses, and what they consider to be a big att.

[Dev]

2 hours ago, invergowrie arab said:

To save LTL posting on this subject again and again and again. Tayside Juniors who want to move are putting in infrastructure now and will apply individually when time is right.

I think some were hoping that the Brechin issue would be put to the test this year.

I think option 1 is join EoSL Option 2 apply directly to HL Option 3 join North Juniors if at Tier 6.

There won't be a Tayside League at Tier 6. There isn't enough clubs interested.

It's interesting to hear that some clubs are looking at a way to join-up with the Pyramid leagues and are carrying out Ground work which would, presumably, help with that aim.

It has been mentioned on the Juniors East Region thread that clubs such as Armadale and Whitburn have been busy working on their Grounds/facilities etc this summer. Hopefully it is with a view to joining the East of Scotland League sooner rather than later and their colleague clubs will join them in preparing for a move. We shall see!

[LongTimeLurker]

12 minutes ago, Andy groundhopper said:

Guessing the NCL crowds aren't expected to be great, anything over 30 is really good imo, going by the Highland geography then I'd say  200 would be a good figure to work with. Suppose the crowd income at these clubs depends on their expenses, and what they consider to be a big att.

These are basically amateur teams playing on not much more than public parks in some cases. Not sure whether you would always even need to pay to watch. The NCL was close to folding in recent years because of lack of numbers and was playing a relatively short season, because the further north you get in Scotland the more a summer season format tends to be favoured by local amateur leagues as daylight hours are shorter and weather conditions can be more horrendous than is the case further south in the winter. Will be interesting to see if more interest would shift over to the NCL's winter format if/when they become a tier 6 feeder.

[Ray Patterson]

5 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

These are basically amateur teams playing on not much more than public parks in some cases. Not sure whether you would always even need to pay to watch. The NCL was close to folding in recent years because of lack of numbers and was playing a relatively short season, because the further north you get in Scotland the more a summer season format tends to be favoured by local amateur leagues as daylight hours are shorter and weather conditions can be more horrendous than is the case further south in the winter. Will be interesting to see if more interest would shift over to the NCL's winter format if/when they become a tier 6 feeder.

Love how you've kindly forgot to say, it's almost trebled its membership in recent years as well.

[Ranaldo Bairn]

15 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

So clearly not. Time for a new ignore list entry.

Good shout.

Tattie bye!

[LongTimeLurker]

6 hours ago, ArabAuslander said:

Love how you've kindly forgot to say, it's almost trebled its membership in recent years as well.

6 to 13 isn't almost trebled and they are not completely out of the woods in numbers terms yet. It remains to be seen what would happen if they ever attempted to play a 40+ fixture date season that would overlap and directly compete with the summer amateur leagues once they become a mainstream tier 6 feeder. Hope it all works out for them and the likes of Alness, Tain and Thurso eventually become viable possibilities for promotion to the HL but people need to grasp the scale of the sea change needed for that to happen.

Edited August 12, 2020 by LongTimeLurker

[prodcast]

Would the Tayside juniors not just fold into the current North Juniors as a district within the overall region?

[LongTimeLurker]

25 minutes ago, prodcast said:

Would the Tayside juniors not just fold into the current North Juniors as a district within the overall region?

No indication that's on anybody's agenda. There was a podcast a few weeks back involving officeholders from both the north and east (Lochee United) regions where the pyramid was discussed in depth and that scenario was never mentioned.  You need to give a year's notice to change regions in the SJFA through the relevant AGMs, so if any individual Tayside club was planning to do Invergowrie Arab's option three by 2021-22 we would have already heard about it. The north region is widely expected to be at tier 6 by then along with the North Caledonian League.

Edited August 12, 2020 by LongTimeLurker

[prodcast]

1 hour ago, LongTimeLurker said:

No indication that's on anybody's agenda. There was a podcast a few weeks back involving officeholders from both the north and east (Lochee United) regions where the pyramid was discussed in depth and that scenario was never mentioned.  You need to give a year's notice to change regions in the SJFA through the relevant AGMs, so if any individual Tayside club was planning to do Invergowrie Arab's option three by 2021-22 we would have already heard about it. The north region is widely expected to be at tier 6 by then along with the North Caledonian League.

Oh, right - I imagined that the north caley lge would feed in at tier 7, just below the top north region juniors, and alongside the other sub-regions such as Tayside. But it sounds like things are well in hand. I do recall the Fraserburgh chairman mentioning that promotion to the HL was on the way, when he was interviewed in the spring.

[FairWeatherFan]

4 minutes ago, prodcast said:

Oh, right - I imagined that the north caley lge would feed in at tier 7, just below the top north region juniors, and alongside the other sub-regions such as Tayside. But it sounds like things are well in hand. I do recall the Fraserburgh chairman mentioning that promotion to the HL was on the way, when he was interviewed in the spring.

NCL and North Region are expected to be Tier 6 to the Highland League's Tier 5. Its just a question of when by the looks of things.

Nobody is talking with the East Region as a league body. Lochee United's Secretary said they're in 'no man's land'. His preference would be for a Midland League feeding into the Lowland League which would see Fife & Tayside clubs in it, but no one else is talking about it. Best bet for those in the Region is to collectively apply to the EoSFL if they want in the pyramid and are unwilling to entertain the Highland League.

[welshbairn]

1 hour ago, prodcast said:

Would the Tayside juniors not just fold into the current North Juniors as a district within the overall region?

Not so long as there's no interest from them or the North Juniors. Longtimelurker seems to think this is the fault of the Highland League, but I don't see how. They've been open to direct applications for a while, and none came from Tayside or anywhere else for that matter.

[prodcast]

20 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

NCL and North Region are expected to be Tier 6 to the Highland League's Tier 5. Its just a question of when by the looks of things.

Nobody is talking with the East Region as a league body. Lochee United's Secretary said they're in 'no man's land'. His preference would be for a Midland League feeding into the Lowland League which would see Fife & Tayside clubs in it, but no one else is talking about it. Best bet for those in the Region is to collectively apply to the EoSFL if they want in the pyramid and are unwilling to entertain the Highland League.

A Midland League sitting below the Lowland League sounds okay, provided that promotion is via play off with East, West, South winners. It's maybe a bit untidy, but play offs should weed out any weaker division champions.

18 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

Not so long as there's no interest from them or the North Juniors. Longtimelurker seems to think this is the fault of the Highland League, but I don't see how. They've been open to direct applications for a while, and none came from Tayside or anywhere else for that matter.

No applications from anyone seems odd. Maybe suggests that current boundaries and prospects aren't right. But I'm sure you've been over that in the pages i haven't caught up with yet!

 

[LongTimeLurker]

13 hours ago, welshbairn said:

...Longtimelurker seems to think this is the fault of the Highland League, but I don't see how...

No idea how you reached that conclusion. The SFA hosted a series of PWG meetings after the 2018 SJFA AGM voted for pyramid entry with a view to getting the east region superleague (Tayside included) and the west superleague hooked up to the LL as tier 6 feeders, with the north superleague and NCL being the only relevant leagues in the negotiations where the HL is concerned (which initially went nowhere but recently appear to have been making progress).

The LL and EoS were able to block east and west superleague entry as tier 6 feeders as they need to sign off on any change to the tier 6 promotion into the LL and hence had an effective veto over new feeders. The EoS in particular was bitterly opposed to the idea of a second east feeder. The SFA and SoS didn't have any problem, but the WoS eventually had to be set up instead to get the west region clubs in with the east region left out in the cold in pyramid terms.

As things stand it's obvious enough what the South Premiership east region clubs need to do (i.e. join the EoS at tier 8), but Tayside is stuck in limbo to a certain extent. They are not part of the HL tier 6 negotiations on the one hand and although Luncarty got into the EoS OK this year it's not 100% clear that they can access the south pyramid through the EoS on the other.

Most of the relevant stakeholders involved appear to want Tayside to go south judging from their actions, but the LL have to sign off on a change to the Club 42 playoff rule before the issue can be fully resolved as the boundary is currently the midpoint of the Tay Road Bridge in that context. 

The LL clubs knocked that back at their recent AGM. Brechin City (who were less than enthralled at the prospect of joining the HL and had been instrumental in pushing for the change earlier this year as they have a representative on the SPFL board) and the SPFL aren't exactly flavour of the month with them right now because of the way they used the COVID19 pandemic as an excuse to cancel the 2019-20 Club 42 playoff, so that's understandable enough.

Edited August 13, 2020 by LongTimeLurker

[welshbairn]

2 minutes ago, prodcast said:

A Midland League sitting below the Lowland League sounds okay, provided that promotion is via play off with East, West, South winners. It's maybe a bit untidy, but play offs should weed out any weaker division champions.

No applications from anyone seems odd. Maybe suggests that current boundaries and prospects aren't right. But I'm sure you've been over that in the pages i haven't caught up with yet!

 

You should tell your boss to put in a bid for the Northern Meeting Ground in Inverness, take over Loch Ness FC and move the players up here. Fast track into the Highland League and probably easier to win than the Lowland League. He can't want to be stuck beside a motorway in the middle of nowhere, and with no public transport forever. 

[FairWeatherFan]

7 minutes ago, prodcast said:

A Midland League sitting below the Lowland League sounds okay, provided that promotion is via play off with East, West, South winners. It's maybe a bit untidy, but play offs should weed out any weaker division champions.

A Midland League is a non-starter as it means ripping up the East of Scotland League at all levels. The bulk of the Fife clubs are in the South and probably prefer travelling into Lothian as well. Which is why they've all gone apart from Tayside original Tayport.

[LongTimeLurker]

12 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

You should tell your boss to put in a bid for the Northern Meeting Ground in Inverness, take over Loch Ness FC and move the players up here. Fast track into the Highland League and probably easier to win than the Lowland League. He can't want to be stuck beside a motorway in the middle of nowhere, and with no public transport forever. 

With Caledonian in their name and no Thistle they might even attract some fans in an Inverness context.

Edited August 12, 2020 by LongTimeLurker

[Juanhourjoe]

Always thought the lowland league, on a par with the Highland league was a mess. But having a midland league, along with an East and West at tier 5 would be a great idea. A 4 region playoff to come up would actually be a lot more exciting than what we've got now.

[Ray Patterson]

2 hours ago, Juanhourjoe said:

Always thought the lowland league, on a par with the Highland league was a mess. But having a midland league, along with an East and West at tier 5 would be a great idea. A 4 region playoff to come up would actually be a lot more exciting than what we've got now.

The SPFL only wanted 1 feeder to League Two, they reluctantly settled on 2. No way would they agree to 4 feeders. 

For the pyramid to be "complete" at Senior/Junior level the SFA need to a grow a pair and tell Brechin that the boundary stays, Tayside is in the Highland region and is a T6 League. As well as forcing the remaining WL Juniors to either disband and members Join the EoS, join the EoS as a Tier 7/8 regionalised league or go Amatuer.

Won't happen though.

[welshbairn]

2 hours ago, Juanhourjoe said:

Always thought the lowland league, on a par with the Highland league was a mess. But having a midland league, along with an East and West at tier 5 would be a great idea. A 4 region playoff to come up would actually be a lot more exciting than what we've got now.

I don't think that's such a bad idea, apart from the Highland league struggling to finish in time for the play offs as it is. And there would have to be automatic demotion for team 42 and a playoff for team 41 at least.