Highland Pyramid

[cmontheloknow]

SJFA were telling clubs that if they left for LL and changed their mind, they'd have to start again at the bottom of the Junior structure. Hardly an encouragement to leap into the unknown.

[FairWeatherFan]

12 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Many junior clubs expressed an interest in various surveys. The mechanism through which the LL was set up made it very difficult for them to apply.

Picking the best applicants to meet licencing standards wasn't difficult.

While EoSFL clubs and to extent SoSFL clubs were willing to apply and not worry about what get left behind, the Juniors were unwilling to do so.

Either out of lack interest highlighted by the relatively small number of Juniors that registered their interest at the time or out of fear of the league failing or themselves failing which led to concerns over how relegation would be handled. Which wasn't helped by the official SJFA stance of joining the pyramid in 2014-15 at the earliest.

[LongTimeLurker]

26 minutes ago, cmontheloknow said:

SJFA were telling clubs that if they left for LL and changed their mind, they'd have to start again at the bottom of the Junior structure. Hardly an encouragement to leap into the unknown.

...when the LL was only accepting a limited number of clubs through application meaning any top junior club that applied could be left marooned with no traditional local derbies and no path back to their superleague through relegation. The EoS premier clubs (mainly Spartans) saw their chance to shape the LL in their own image and pounced. 

Edited August 11, 2020 by LongTimeLurker

[Cyclizine]

36 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

There is a North Premiership in the east region that is a "Tayside League" even if they eventually opted for other branding. The champion of that would be a good fit for a three-way HL promotion playoff with the NCL and north region champions if the Club 42 boundary was still viewed as applicable (yes I know on Tayport as the solitary outlier by a few hundred yards).

The SJFA did the negotiating with the LL in a PWG context when two junior regions were involved. It is not doing so where the HL is concerned and only the north region ever rates a mention in that context from the HL in media coverage at the moment.  Draw your own conclusions.

The only place you ever see the idea that Tayside will fall under HL at tier 6 being pushed as some proven fact is by a few posters on P&B as far as I can tell. There is a disconnect between what is actually happening and what often gets posted on here.

The North Premiership is merely a league within the ERJFA, it doesn't have a management committee that represents or could negotiate for all the clubs - that remains the responsibility of the ERJFA committee. The only committee that has Tayside clubs, but not Lothian is the joint committee with the NRJFA that organises the Inter-regional Cup. It would be up to the member clubs themselves to start any negotiations (with HFL, NRJFA, EoSFA or even setting up their own FA), assuming the ERJFA management committee as a whole remains uninterested in negotiating for only some of their clubs.

39 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Many junior clubs expressed an interest in various surveys. The mechanism through which the LL was set up made it very difficult for them to apply, but Kelty eventually did and the rest is history. The HL may have welcomed the prospect of an Angus SPFL club possibly joining them through relegation at one point, but there is no evidence that they ever seriously expected to be joined by Lochee United or Broughty Athletic even if it was a hypothetical possibility.

But the option to apply to the HFL was and still is there, even if "not expected" by the HFL - it could have happened.

11 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

...when the LL was only accepting a limited number of clubs through application meaning any top junior club that applied could be left marooned with no traditional local derbies and no path back to their superleague through relegation. The EoS premier clubs (mainly Spartans) saw their chance to shape the LL in their own image and pounced. 

...and whose fault was the situation where clubs would be "marooned"? That was a decision made by the SJFA.

[FairWeatherFan]

20 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

...when the LL was only accepting a limited number of clubs through application meaning any top junior club that applied could be left marooned with no traditional local derbies

That's the fear.

20 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

no path back to their superleague through relegation.

That's the SJFA taking a hands off approach and not accepting its place in the pyramid.

20 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

The EoS premier clubs (mainly Spartans) saw their chance to shape the LL in their own image and pounced. 

Spartans as one of only 3 fully licenced clubs in the Lowland area were guaranteed a place in the LL. When you consider the 3 key positions of the LL board went to Preston Athletic (Chairperson), Whitehill Welfare (Vice-Chairperson), and Gretna 2008 (Treasurer). And that the EoSFL reps on the SFA boards were not from Spartans. I think you might be overblowing the role Spartans took.

If you want to point your paranoia somewhere it might be better focused on Preston. Since they had applied for the SFL three times at that point and came nowhere near.

[LongTimeLurker]

22 minutes ago, Cyclizine said:

The North Premiership is merely a league within the ERJFA, it doesn't have a management committee that represents or could negotiate for all the clubs - that remains the responsibility of the ERJFA committee.....and whose fault was the situation where clubs would be "marooned"? That was a decision made by the SJFA.

So applying the logic of the last part, now that you have moved the goalposts from your original posture of "junior clubs" sulking rather than the SJFA where LL related negotiations were concerned, why would it not be the SJFA doing the negotiating on behalf of both the north and east regions at this point where HL feeders are concerned?

All the indications point to the HL, SFA and SJFA viewing this as a north region only issue with the entire east region falling under the LL in pyramid negotiation terms, while we also have the information from George Fraser earlier this year about the SPFL trying to strongarm the LL into agreeing a Club 42 boundary shift so that Angus clubs would be relegated into the LL rather than the HL.

It should be obvious at this point that Tayside's destiny in pyramid terms is still far from clear cut, but probably more likely to be as part of the LL catchment than the HL's given Luncarty managed to get into the EoS OK, but we still get people on here who seem to view the Club 42 boundary as fixed and immutable and applicable to all pyramid matters rather than just the narrow issue of where Club 42 gets relegated to.

Edited August 11, 2020 by LongTimeLurker

[Cyclizine]

27 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

So applying the logic of the last part, now that you have moved the goalposts from your original posture of "junior clubs" sulking rather than the SJFA where LL related negotiations were concerned, why would it not be the SJFA doing the negotiating on behalf of both the north and east regions at this point where HL feeders are concerned?

All the indications point to the HL, SFA and SJFA viewing this as a north region only issue with the entire east region falling under the LL in pyramid negotiation terms, while we also have the information from George Fraser earlier this year about the SPFL trying to strongarm the LL into agreeing a Club 42 boundary shift so that Angus clubs would be relegated into the LL rather than the HL.

It should be obvious at this point that Tayside's destiny in pyramid terms is still far from clear cut, but probably more likely to be as part of the LL catchment than the HL's given Luncarty managed to get into the EoS OK, but we still get people on here who seem to view the Club 42 boundary as fixed and immutable and applicable to all pyramid matters rather than just the narrow issue of where Club 42 gets relegated to.

You're all over the place here, the HFL is in discussions with the NRJFA, not the SJFA, the association that has ignored the North in favour of the East and now departed West Regions. I have not implied that junior clubs are sulking - where do you get that from? I'm saying that it's the Tayside clubs that will need to decide where their future lies, because the SJFA and ERJFA aren't going to talk to any other associations. The boundary isn't irrelevant here as it will depend how it's interpreted by different bodies - until someone tests this or a statement is issued, we don't know what will happen. Would Luncarty be allowed promotion to the Lowland League? I don't know - ask the League.

 

[LongTimeLurker]

12 minutes ago, Cyclizine said:

... I have not implied that junior clubs are sulking...

 

2 hours ago, Stag Nation said:

I seem to recall that the junior clubs were invited to the party when it was proposed, but decided to sulk instead.

Got you confused with Stag Nation. As for the rest not worth pursuing. All I am doing is pointing out the reality of what is actually happening where the HL negotiations are concerned. Tayside is not involved, so it is not safe to assume that the HL catchment is the destination for Tayside given Luncarty from north of the line was just accepted by the EoS.

Edited August 11, 2020 by LongTimeLurker

[Cyclizine]

21 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

 

Got you confused with Stag Nation. As for the rest not worth pursuing. All I am doing is pointing out the reality of what is actually happening where the HL negotiations are concerned. Tayside is not involved, so it is not safe to assume that the HL catchment is the destination for Tayside given Luncarty from north of the line was just accepted by the EoS.

Have you even read my posts? I'm not claiming Tayside will go North (although my opinion is that they should). I've even written a few times that it's up to the Tayside clubs to decide their future; be that individually or as a group and if their future lies in the ERJFA, NRJFA, EoSFA or HFL.

We know the HFL aren't currently talking to the Tayside clubs or the ERJFA, I don't know why you're presenting it as some sort of conspiracy and you're the only one in the know.

Edited August 11, 2020 by Cyclizine

[LongTimeLurker]

Bizarre that this flurry of posts was caused by something as inocuous as this:

5 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

The only future tier 6 feeders that the HL are negotiating with are the NCL and north region juniors. There is no indication that the HL currently view Broughty Ferry as part of their catchment and have any plans to cater to it now that junior clubs have crashed the pyramid party, because Tayside never seems to rate a mention when the issue of tier 6 feeders gets discussed by or reported on in HL only circles. Broughty Athletic can always put an application into the EoS like Luncarty did.

in reponse to this:

20 hours ago, ArabAuslander said:

Off piste, but went past Whitton Park today and saw they're erecting some cover, would put them in line for a License in future should they join the HL feeder.

 

 

[Cyclizine]

8 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Bizarre that this flurry of posts was caused by something as inocuous as this:

in reponse to this:

 

 

Yeah my fault for engaging with you, although I will point out my "flurry" today was four posts and you've spaffed out seven

Edited August 11, 2020 by Cyclizine

[LongTimeLurker]

8 minutes ago, Cyclizine said:

Yeah my fault for engaging with you

I hope that means you won't waste my time like this again.

[Cyclizine]

6 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

I hope that means you won't waste my time like this again.

Pot, kettle, mate

xox

[LongTimeLurker]

So clearly not. Time for a new ignore list entry.

[Cyclizine]

Just now, LongTimeLurker said:

So clearly not. Time for a new ignore list entry.

Oh man, I'm devastated. Devastated, I tell you.

[cmontheloknow]

2 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

...when the LL was only accepting a limited number of clubs through application meaning any top junior club that applied could be left marooned with no traditional local derbies and no path back to their superleague through relegation. The EoS premier clubs (mainly Spartans) saw their chance to shape the LL in their own image and pounced. 

Not relevant to my point - SJFA actively discouraged clubs.

[LongTimeLurker]

Just now, cmontheloknow said:

Not relevant to my point - SJFA actively discouraged clubs.

Of course it is relevant. You need to understand the actions of both the SJFA blazers in actively discouraging and threatening clubs and the three licensed clubs (Spartans, Threave and Preston) that initiated the formation of the LL in not fostering a scenario that would have made it easy for lots of junior clubs to apply and all be accepted into the new structure at the same time to fully understand why junior clubs like Clydebank and Blackburn that had been saying they were interested in surverys felt unable to take the plunge. More than one of the parties involved in a negotiation process can have a negative impact on the eventual outcome for cynical self-serving reasons. There doesn't have to be a simplistic binary good guy bad guy thing going on with only Tom Johnston as the pantomine style villian.

[cmontheloknow]

1 minute ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Of course it is relevant. You need to understand the actions of both the SJFA blazers in actively discouraging and threatening clubs and the three licensed clubs (Spartans, Threave and Preston) that initiated the formation of the LL in not fostering a scenario that would have made it easy for lots of junior clubs to apply and all be accepted into the new structure at the same time to fully understand why junior clubs like Clydebank and Blackburn that had been saying they were interested in surverys felt unable to take the plunge. More than one of the parties involved in a negotiation process can have a negative impact on the eventual outcome for cynical self-serving reasons. There doesn't have to be a simplistic binary good guy bad guy thing going on with only Tom Johnston as the pantomine style villian.

His attitude stank throughout. Seemed more interested in preserving the SJFA than clubs furthering themselves, and at every opportunity belittled the pyramid. What the Senior clubs did may not have helped but I don't see it as some sort of pact to sink Junior involvement in the pyramid.

[FairWeatherFan]

6 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

the three licensed clubs (Spartans, Threave and Preston) that initiated the formation of the LL.

The Lowland League or Lowland Regional Division as it was first going to be once it was more than a soundbite, was a SFA idea to help facilitate a pyramid. Actively came off the back of the Scottish Cup reforms and start of licencing for SFA members. Part of the wider restructuring of the SFA that saw the changes ot the SFA board and creation of the Professional Game Board and Non-Professional Game Board.

You can basically thank Stewart Regan pushing for some of the changes brought up by the McLeish Report rather than targeting 3 clubs that just signed up for it.

[invergowrie arab]

To save LTL posting on this subject again and again and again. Tayside Juniors who want to move are putting in infrastructure now and will apply individually when time is right.

I think some were hoping that the Brechin issue would be put to the test this year.

I think option 1 is join EoSL Option 2 apply directly to HL Option 3 join North Juniors if at Tier 6.

There won't be a Tayside League at Tier 6. There isn't enough clubs interested.