Highland Pyramid

[FairWeatherFan]

24 minutes ago, morley said:

Ok put my hands up and say my point is wrong in terms of current crowd numbers. I find it interesting that of the 20 biggest non league teams shown in the table, 19 in the pyramid, but only 9 of the 20 are currently playing at T5 level.

If we're saying "currently" is the 2020-21. Then its 10/20 as Bo'ness United are now a Lowland League club.

The Lowland League was built on licencing more than anything. Otherwise a number of clubs would never have made it based on performance on the field and newer clubs would have been squeezed out if others had applied instead. So it's not that surprising to see so few Lowland League sides in the mix.

The LL is only going to get stronger overall though as most clubs saw an increase this year compared to 2018-19. Although, I'm not sure the LL would ever surpass the average of League Two. Just by the virtue of the smaller League Two sides likely being replaced by the bigger Lowland League sides keeping the higher league at an advantage.

But the stronger the LL gets the greater the chances of more fluid movement between the non-league and SPFL which is the important thing.

[Gordon EF]

19 hours ago, Cyclizine said:

Aye, at the moment there's no incentive for SPFL clubs to push for any change. Why would SPFL2 clubs vote for an automatic trapdoor and why would SPFL1+ clubs vote to see their "friends" relegated?

I suspect East Stirlingshire and Berwick might have a different opinion now than when they were in the SPFL, mind. Multiple chances to save yourselves from going down, but significantly harder to go back up...

This is it. It's fine to complain and say that L2 clubs are protecting themselves but as we've just had a perfect lesson in over this summer, all clubs at all levels will look after their own interests first. Chmpionship clubs say this about Premier clubs and then protect their own interests when it comes to Leagues One and Two. League One and Two clubs say this about the Premier and Championship and then protect themselves from the HL and LL. Even the LL themselves have a fairly tough entry system from below which could see a very significant bottleneck at the top of the EoS and WoS Premiers over the next decade or so.

Clubs can't just argue for what suits them and hope other clubs will vote it through to their own detriment based on strength of argument.

There is a strange catch 22 at the bottom of the SPFL at the moment though. The more difficult it is to drop out of the SPFL, the scarier the prospect becomes. I agree entirely that the HL / LL play off winner should be going up automatically at the very least. I'd love to see us move towards a situation where both the HL and LL champions go up without the need for a play-off and two teams come down.

Then you've got the other issue where that seems a more realistic goal if L2 were to be expanded to say 16 teams. Finishing 14th/16 seems a lot easier than finsihing 8th/10. But then clubs will see prize money pots being diluted further.

I think some sort of recontruction will be the ultimate solution to this but it seems pretty clear that something that can achieve a winning margin rather than unanimous support will be needed. You won't please everyone and it'll probably lead to some fairly bitter disagreements.

The biggest factor is probably making tier 5 into a more attractive prospect. If a few of the lowland clubs in L2 could see a really exciting, competitive league down there with clubs that would bring a few fans and provide interesting competitive fixtures week in week out, I think that'd make a big difference.

No offence to any clubs but I think a lot of SPFL clubs take the view that half your games being against new / tiny / uni teams with barely any supporters is extremely unappealing. When the LL is filled with the bigger ex-juniors, a few more ex-SPFL, and the bigger/better LL originals that survive the promotion/relegation maelstrom of the next few seasons, you might start to see a few stances soften.

[cmontheloknow]

7 minutes ago, Gordon EF said:

This is it. It's fine to complain and say that L2 clubs are protecting themselves but as we've just had a perfect lesson in over this summer, all clubs at all levels will look after their own interests first. Chmpionship clubs say this about Premier clubs and then protect their own interests when it comes to Leagues One and Two. League One and Two clubs say this about the Premier and Championship and then protect themselves from the HL and LL. Even the LL themselves have a fairly tough entry system from below which could see a very significant bottleneck at the top of the EoS and WoS Premiers over the next decade or so.

Clubs can't just argue for what suits them and hope other clubs will vote it through to their own detriment based on strength of argument.

There is a strange catch 22 at the bottom of the SPFL at the moment though. The more difficult it is to drop out of the SPFL, the scarier the prospect becomes. I agree entirely that the HL / LL play off winner should be going up automatically at the very least. I'd love to see us move towards a situation where both the HL and LL champions go up without the need for a play-off and two teams come down.

Then you've got the other issue where that seems a more realistic goal if L2 were to be expanded to say 16 teams. Finishing 14th/16 seems a lot easier than finsihing 8th/10. But then clubs will see prize money pots being diluted further.

I think some sort of recontruction will be the ultimate solution to this but it seems pretty clear that something that can achieve a winning margin rather than unanimous support will be needed. You won't please everyone and it'll probably lead to some fairly bitter disagreements.

The biggest factor is probably making tier 5 into a more attractive prospect. If a few of the lowland clubs in L2 could see a really exciting, competitive league down there with clubs that would bring a few fans and provide interesting competitive fixtures week in week out, I think that'd make a big difference.

No offence to any clubs but I think a lot of SPFL clubs take the view that half your games being against new / tiny / uni teams with barely any supporters is extremely unappealing. When the LL is filled with the bigger ex-juniors, a few more ex-SPFL, and the bigger/better LL originals that survive the promotion/relegation maelstrom of the next few seasons, you might start to see a few stances soften.

The argument used to demonise the pyramid by Junior fans and ironically made the issue longer-lasting and harder to undo! It wasn't seen as attractive, it was openly scorned by players, management, fans and committee alike. But while they did that, more joined the LL / became stronger and look where we are now.

Edited August 10, 2020 by cmontheloknow

[Gordon EF]

Just now, cmontheloknow said:

The argument used to demonise the pyramid by Junior fans and ironically made the issue longer-lasting and harder to undo!

Yep. I don't agree with that stance at all. My view is, you set up a good structure and let clubs find their level within it. The more promotion / relegation spaces there are, the quicker that'll happen.

[FairWeatherFan]

7 minutes ago, Gordon EF said:

Then you've got the other issue where that seems a more realistic goal if L2 were to be expanded to say 16 teams. Finishing 14th/16 seems a lot easier than finsihing 8th/10. But then clubs will see prize money pots being diluted further.

I'd like to think 12-12-18 has a shot at some point since it had traction with the silly 8-8-8 in some circles. Keeps the SPFL at 42 clubs, so only a slight rejig of financial redistribution rather than finding funds for new members.

Leaves the Premiership unchanged. Expands the Championship to try and provide some security to those smaller full time sides that can't help themselves in getting relegated to the 3rd Tier.

For League One and League Two its a mixed bag though depending on how they feel about things.

 

[Gordon EF]

8 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

I'd like to think 12-12-18 has a shot at some point since it had traction with the silly 8-8-8 in some circles. Keeps the SPFL at 42 clubs, so only a slight rejig of financial redistribution rather than finding funds for new members.

Leaves the Premiership unchanged. Expands the Championship to try and provide some security to those smaller full time sides that can't help themselves in getting relegated to the 3rd Tier.

For League One and League Two its a mixed bag though depending on how they feel about things.

 

I'd probably vote for 12-12-18. If the top 5/6 were in promotion / play-off spots then you're dangling that carrot of just being once good season away from being in the Championship to all th epart-time SPFL clubs.

[Andy groundhopper]

Without racking my brains,the HL/LL play off games v spfl club 42 etc, wonder how many leagues don't automatically promote the champions ? You've won all 22 games etc but we don't care comes across, while the bottom side lose every game but are deemed too good to be relegated. Funny old game eh.

[Cyclizine]

7 minutes ago, Andy groundhopper said:

Without racking my brains,the HL/LL play off games v spfl club 42 etc, wonder how many leagues don't automatically promote the champions ? You've won all 22 games etc but we don't care comes across, while the bottom side lose every game but are deemed too good to be relegated. Funny old game eh.

England from Alliance Premier to Division Four pre-1987. We're a touch behind in Scotland, but the situation is not dissimilar, with a bunch of unconnected non-League divisions floating around below the League, with occasional clubs being elected, but mostly the bottom League club being reprieved.

Also: Ireland, the Failed Statelet and the Netherlands systems don't guarantee a promotion to the "League", and neither does winning the Regionalligen in Germany (or Austria for that matter); although clubs are relegated from above automatically.

Edited August 10, 2020 by Cyclizine

[Ray Patterson]

Off piste, but went past Whitton Park today and saw they're erecting some cover, would put them in line for a License in future should they join the HL feeder.

 

[morley]

7 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

These were the Top 20 from Headcounts. I went with 20 due to the incomplete nature of the headcounts.

May I say it but what a cracking SPFL3 this league would make. 

[Jimmy Shaker]

Clach’s numbers are possibly skewed because of that bumper evening at The Rugby when they lost to Fort, but an average of 271 sounds like horseshit.

[Marten]

15 hours ago, cmontheloknow said:

The Lok figure by the way is official. Quite often there is a contrast between official and unofficial it would be fair to say when two are given side by side!

Unless Lochee Utd have suddenly found a support I'd find their figures debatable!

The Lochee v DNE game on 21/12 was given as 379...! Really?

To be fair, most of the people attending usually stand a bit higher on the opposite end of the pitch from where the camera was, so you won't be able to see them in the highlights. I'm not saying it was definitely right (I wasn't there that day so I can't judge), but I have attended games with similar attendances at Thomson Park. Usually the highest attendences are when neither Dundee, nor Dundee United, have a home game so a fair amount of people flock to Lochee United instead. I have no idea if either was playing at home that day.

[cmontheloknow]

19 minutes ago, Marten said:

To be fair, most of the people attending usually stand a bit higher on the opposite end of the pitch from where the camera was, so you won't be able to see them in the highlights. I'm not saying it was definitely right (I wasn't there that day so I can't judge), but I have attended games with similar attendances at Thomson Park. Usually the highest attendences are when neither Dundee, nor Dundee United, have a home game so a fair amount of people flock to Lochee United instead. I have no idea if either was playing at home that day.

There's about 100 in the shed so you're looking at having 300 or so along the top.

8000 at Tannadice that day.

270 for the BSC game a few months earlier. That *might* have been official?

Edited August 11, 2020 by cmontheloknow

[TheScarf]

1 hour ago, Jimmy Shaker said:

Clach’s numbers are possibly skewed because of that bumper evening at The Rugby when they lost to Fort, but an average of 271 sounds like horseshit.

The game at Highland Rugby Club in January may be a factor but every time I’ve been to a HL game at Clach in the last couple of years there’s been a healthy number of away fans. Sometimes up to 50 (Cove, Buckie, Brora) so it may not be far off the mark.

[LongTimeLurker]

14 hours ago, ArabAuslander said:

Off piste, but went past Whitton Park today and saw they're erecting some cover, would put them in line for a License in future should they join the HL feeder.

The only future tier 6 feeders that the HL are negotiating with are the NCL and north region juniors. There is no indication that the HL currently view Broughty Ferry as part of their catchment and have any plans to cater to it now that junior clubs have crashed the pyramid party, because Tayside never seems to rate a mention when the issue of tier 6 feeders gets discussed by or reported on in HL only circles. Broughty Athletic can always put an application into the EoS like Luncarty did.

[Marten]

There's about 100 in the shed so you're looking at having 300 or so along the top.

8000 at Tannadice that day.

270 for the BSC game a few months earlier. That *might* have been official?

As said, I wasn't there that day, but with what you said, that number is unlikely to be correct. The figure against BSC can't be far off reality as there was a healthy crowd present.

 

[Cyclizine]

2 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

The only future tier 6 feeders that the HL are negotiating with are the NCL and north region juniors. There is no indication that the HL currently view Broughty Ferry as part of their catchment and have any plans to cater to it now that junior clubs have crashed the pyramid party, because Tayside never seems to rate a mention when the issue of tier 6 feeders gets discussed by or reported on in HL only circles. Broughty Athletic can always put an application into the EoS like Luncarty did.

Have Broughty even spoken to the HFL? It's up to the Tayside clubs to decide on their future. There's no "Tayside League" for the HFL to negotiate with, just the ERJFA who've shown they have no desire to enter good faith negotiations with anyone.

Whether this means Tayside clubs stay with the ERJFA, or apply individually or en masse to the HFL or NRJFA or EoSFL is up to them. They need to make that call themselves and see what the outcome is. Things might change if we see a move of the remaining West Lothian junior clubs to the EoSFL and the ERJFA essentially becomes a de facto Tayside League.

Edited August 11, 2020 by Cyclizine

[Stag Nation]

3 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

The only future tier 6 feeders that the HL are negotiating with are the NCL and north region juniors. There is no indication that the HL currently view Broughty Ferry as part of their catchment and have any plans to cater to it now that junior clubs have crashed the pyramid party, because Tayside never seems to rate a mention when the issue of tier 6 feeders gets discussed by or reported on in HL only circles. Broughty Athletic can always put an application into the EoS like Luncarty did.

I seem to recall that the junior clubs were invited to the party when it was proposed, but decided to sulk instead.

[LongTimeLurker]

1 hour ago, Cyclizine said:

... There's no "Tayside League" for the HFL to negotiate with, ...

There is a North Premiership in the east region that is a "Tayside League" even if they eventually opted for other branding. The champion of that would be a good fit for a three-way HL promotion playoff with the NCL and north region champions if the Club 42 boundary was still viewed as applicable (yes I know on Tayport as the solitary outlier by a few hundred yards).

The SJFA did the negotiating with the LL in a PWG context when two junior regions were involved. It is not doing so where the HL is concerned and only the north region ever rates a mention in that context from the HL in media coverage at the moment.  Draw your own conclusions.

The only place you ever see the idea that Tayside will fall under HL at tier 6 being pushed as some proven fact is by a few posters on P&B as far as I can tell. There is a disconnect between what is actually happening and what often gets posted on here.

[LongTimeLurker]

34 minutes ago, Stag Nation said:

I seem to recall that the junior clubs were invited to the party when it was proposed, but decided to sulk instead.

Many junior clubs expressed an interest in various surveys. The mechanism through which the LL was set up made it very difficult for them to apply, but Kelty eventually did and the rest is history. The HL may have welcomed the prospect of an Angus SPFL club possibly joining them through relegation at one point, but there is no evidence that they ever seriously expected to be joined by Lochee United or Broughty Athletic even if it was a hypothetical possibility.

Edited August 11, 2020 by LongTimeLurker