Cyclizine Posted August 9, 2020 Share Posted August 9, 2020 (edited) Aye, at the moment there's no incentive for SPFL clubs to push for any change. Why would SPFL2 clubs vote for an automatic trapdoor and why would SPFL1+ clubs vote to see their "friends" relegated? I suspect East Stirlingshire and Berwick might have a different opinion now than when they were in the SPFL, mind. Multiple chances to save yourselves from going down, but significantly harder to go back up... Edited August 9, 2020 by Cyclizine 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsforlife Posted August 9, 2020 Share Posted August 9, 2020 8 minutes ago, Cyclizine said: I suspect East Stirlingshire and Berwick might have a different opinion now than when they were in the SPFL, mind. Multiple chances to save yourselves from going down, but significantly harder to go back up.. Agree, for things to change it needs the likes of east Stirlingshire to get promoted and argue from the inside that the promotion/relegation needs to change. It might not be them, but it will be someone. Unfortunately we’re probably looking at at least a decade until there will be enough clubs with that mindset regardless of any moral argument. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted August 9, 2020 Share Posted August 9, 2020 First step should be automatic promotion for the HL v LL play off winner and demotion for team 42, and a playoff between the loser and team 41. It would have to be part of a bigger deal offering lots of goodies for L2 teams, especially in the case of relegation, and ideally more commercial success in the HL and LL so there's less to worry about. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morley Posted August 10, 2020 Share Posted August 10, 2020 12 hours ago, parsforlife said: Agree, for things to change it needs the likes of east Stirlingshire to get promoted and argue from the inside that the promotion/relegation needs to change. It might not be them, but it will be someone. Unfortunately we’re probably looking at at least a decade until there will be enough clubs with that mindset regardless of any moral argument. What may come much earlier and also have an influence, is as more of the big x junior clubs move into T5 (so really talking about the LL rather than HL here), meaning average crowds surpas those in spfl2 and so helping to close the financial revenue gap atleast in terms of gate revenue between being in T5 and Spfl2. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimeLurker Posted August 10, 2020 Share Posted August 10, 2020 The LL will need to agree a second automatic relegation place to speed things along on that or we could easily be looking at a decade for T5 to start to get up to speed. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hampden Diehard Posted August 10, 2020 Share Posted August 10, 2020 2 hours ago, morley said: What may come much earlier and also have an influence, is as more of the big x junior clubs move into T5 (so really talking about the LL rather than HL here), meaning average crowds surpas those in spfl2 and so helping to close the financial revenue gap atleast in terms of gate revenue between being in T5 and Spfl2. Gates might be good in the LL, but with admission prices at half of D2, the financial gap will still be there. As an aside, Queen's Park have one midweek league game next season, away to Elgin. Be careful what you wish for! That's a lot of six quids and three for concessions to get your guys up there. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyclizine Posted August 10, 2020 Share Posted August 10, 2020 2 hours ago, morley said: What may come much earlier and also have an influence, is as more of the big x junior clubs move into T5 (so really talking about the LL rather than HL here), meaning average crowds surpas those in spfl2 and so helping to close the financial revenue gap atleast in terms of gate revenue between being in T5 and Spfl2. We've seen from the headcounts this isn't true outwith a few non-league clubs and even then it's not consistent. Last season, the average SPFL2 crowd was 480ish, with the usually quoted as poorly supported Albion Rovers having an average of 300 - significantly more than all but a couple of non-league clubs. Plus, as @Hampden Diehard says, there'll be less made on the gate. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairWeatherFan Posted August 10, 2020 Share Posted August 10, 2020 Berwick Rangers had their adult tickets at £10 http://berwickrangers.com/match/matchday-information/ East Stirlinghire I believe are £8 at the minute. More clubs that drop from the SPFL and clubs coming up will probably see a slight increase from the current average ticket price for the Lowland League. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairWeatherFan Posted August 10, 2020 Share Posted August 10, 2020 23 minutes ago, Cyclizine said: We've seen from the headcounts this isn't true outwith a few non-league clubs and even then it's not consistent. Last season, the average SPFL2 crowd was 480ish, with the usually quoted as poorly supported Albion Rovers having an average of 300 - significantly more than all but a couple of non-league clubs. Plus, as @Hampden Diehard says, there'll be less made on the gate. These were the Top 20 from Headcounts. I went with 20 due to the incomplete nature of the headcounts. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyclizine Posted August 10, 2020 Share Posted August 10, 2020 (edited) 16 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said: These were the Top 20 from Headcounts. I went with 20 due to the incomplete nature of the headcounts. I accept that based on that, contrary to what I said, most clubs are averaging more than Albion Rovers, but apart from a couple, still fewer than the SPFL2 average. Don't get me wrong, I think it's great that non-league clubs have such good attendances and I'm not putting them down (I watch most of my football in the HFL), just that I don't think it's inaccurate to say most SPFL2 clubs get more spectators through the gate that clubs lower down the pyramid. Plus, there's potential inconsistencies in the number of games played and headcount v "official" attendance (not going to lie, Clach's is suspiciously high...) Perhaps you can put in some standard deviations in your table! Anyway, this is degenerating into a bit of a crowdwank on my part, so I'll slink off... Edited August 10, 2020 by Cyclizine 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted August 10, 2020 Share Posted August 10, 2020 7 minutes ago, Cyclizine said: Plus, there's potential inconsistencies in the number of games played and headcount v "official" attendance (not going to lie, Clach's is suspiciously high...) Perhaps you can put in some standard deviations in your table! The NCL figures always seem to be 30 for some reason, I assume that includes both teams, officials and the man and his dog 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairWeatherFan Posted August 10, 2020 Share Posted August 10, 2020 1 minute ago, Cyclizine said: I accept that based on that, contrary to what I said, most clubs are averaging more than Albion Rovers, but apart from a couple, still fewer than the SPFL2 average. Don't get me wrong, I think it's great that non-league clubs have such good attendances and I'm not putting them down (I watch most of my football in the HFL), just that I don't think it's inaccurate to say most SPFL2 clubs get more spectators through the gate that clubs lower down the pyramid. Plus, there's potential inconsistencies in the number of games played and headcount v "official" attendance. (Perhaps you can put in some standard deviations in your table!) Anyway, this is degenerating into a bit of a crowdwank on my part, so I'll slink off... It was actually meant to be in support of your argument. As good as non-league attendances can be they aren't that much better than the lowest of the SPFL. And SPFL attendances are more complete, over more games, greater distances and higher prices. And a good chunk of the decent attendances are for non-league clubs that probably won't be troubling the SPFL anytime soon. So good crowds don't equate to good enough teams to rise through the ranks. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairWeatherFan Posted August 10, 2020 Share Posted August 10, 2020 4 minutes ago, welshbairn said: The NCL figures always seem to be 30 for some reason, I assume that includes both teams, officials and the man and his dog NCL didn't get a ton of games accounted for, but then they never played a lot last year. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted August 10, 2020 Share Posted August 10, 2020 2 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said: NCL didn't get a ton of games accounted for, but then they never played a lot last year. Might have been exaggerating then, but I've noticed a few 30's come up, including a Bunilidh Thistle game I went to when there was a maximum of 8 including some who never left the Social Club. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairWeatherFan Posted August 10, 2020 Share Posted August 10, 2020 8 minutes ago, welshbairn said: Might have been exaggerating then, but I've noticed a few 30's come up, including a Bunilidh Thistle game I went to when there was a maximum of 8 including some who never left the Social Club. There's definitely been some similar numbers used amongst the clubs. And it wouldn't surprise me that it's a case of counting the players, officials and coaching staff to give it a head start. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyclizine Posted August 10, 2020 Share Posted August 10, 2020 24 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said: It was actually meant to be in support of your argument. As good as non-league attendances can be they aren't that much better than the lowest of the SPFL. And SPFL attendances are more complete, over more games, greater distances and higher prices. And a good chunk of the decent attendances are for non-league clubs that probably won't be troubling the SPFL anytime soon. So good crowds don't equate to good enough teams to rise through the ranks. Fair enough. I'd just dredged the figures from off the top of my head! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corner Posted August 10, 2020 Share Posted August 10, 2020 17 minutes ago, welshbairn said: ... a Bunilidh Thistle game I went to when there was a maximum of 8 including some who never left the Social Club. They also serve who only stand and drink... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyclizine Posted August 10, 2020 Share Posted August 10, 2020 6 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said: There's definitely been some similar numbers used amongst the clubs. And it wouldn't surprise me that it's a case of counting the players, officials and coaching staff to give it a head start. Halkirk allegedly averaging over 60 seems a wee bit dubious as well... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morley Posted August 10, 2020 Share Posted August 10, 2020 1 hour ago, FairWeatherFan said: These were the Top 20 from Headcounts. I went with 20 due to the incomplete nature of the headcounts. Ok put my hands up and say my point is wrong in terms of current crowd numbers. I find it interesting that of the 20 biggest non league teams shown in the table, 19 in the pyramid, but only 9 of the 20 are currently playing at T5 level. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmontheloknow Posted August 10, 2020 Share Posted August 10, 2020 (edited) The Lok figure by the way is official. Quite often there is a contrast between official and unofficial it would be fair to say when two are given side by side! Unless Lochee Utd have suddenly found a support I'd find their figures debatable! The Lochee v DNE game on 21/12 was given as 379...! Really? Quote Edited August 10, 2020 by cmontheloknow 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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