Jump to content

Highland Pyramid


Burnie_man

Recommended Posts

With the possible exception of Banks o' Dee and (a revitalised) Sunnybank, I doubt very much if there are any North juniors contemplating going senior. There are a host of juniors in/round Aberdeen and most of the remainder are in towns that already have a senior team, be it in the SPFL or the HL. Burghead Thistle spring to mind as being one of the few without a senior team on their doorstep, but there are a couple not far away. Also Banchory St Ternan. Spey Valley United are practically in Grantown.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

12 minutes ago, Whitburn Vale said:

I will say this once again......speaking to official's from Whitburn juniors,Bathgate Thistle and Harthill Royal that I either work with or know they are adamant they want no part in regularly travelling to Tayside.

Speaking to a guy on the Harthill committee yesterday,hes even moaning about travelling to Eyemouth and Coldstream,if Harthill join the EoS !!!

The only way in for Whitburn and co will be the EoS. Once Livingston United go the West Lothian league setup is probably about two more defections and/or abeyances away from completely unravelling. The Tayside angle probably isn't in any way pivotal to what will happen in other words.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Jacksgranda said:

With the possible exception of Banks o' Dee and (a revitalised) Sunnybank, I doubt very much if there are any North juniors contemplating going senior. There are a host of juniors in/round Aberdeen and most of the remainder are in towns that already have a senior team, be it in the SPFL or the HL. Burghead Thistle spring to mind as being one of the few without a senior team on their doorstep, but there are a couple not far away. Also Banchory St Ternan. Spey Valley United are practically in Grantown.

My understanding is that the reason they might sign up is mainly to get rid of Banks o' Dee and stop them from hogging all the silverware due to the cash injection they get from full SFA membership as they would be forced to accept promotion to keep their licence if they won the north superleague. At that point if nobody else gets licensed nothing much changes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

 

The only way in for Whitburn and co will be the EoS. Once Livingston United go the West Lothian league setup is probably about two more defections and/or abeyances away from completely unravelling. The Tayside angle probably isn't in any way pivotal to what will happen in other words.

It is pivotal as the West Lothian teams want nowt to do with Tayside teams in the EoS when they eventually join !!

That's why the ERJFA is set up the way it is now because the West Lothian teams wanted nothing to do with travelling to Dundee and Angus regularly.

Edited by Whitburn Vale
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Whitburn Vale said:

It is pivotal as they want nowt to do with Tayside teams in the EoS when they eventually join !!

That's why the ERJFA is set up the way it is now because the West Lothian teams wanted nothing to do with travelling to Dundee and Angus regularly.

They still have to go to Tayside for east region level cup games. They are unlikely to ever wind up in a Tayside heavy division in an EoS context unlike what happened two seasons ago with the east superleague.  The fears are overblown.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

My understanding is that the reason they might sign up is mainly to get rid of Banks o' Dee and stop them from hogging all the silverware due to the cash injection they get from full SFA membership as they would be forced to accept promotion to keep their licence if they won the north superleague. At that point if nobody else gets licensed nothing much changes.

Aye, that might be, after BoD go up I doubt very much if anyone else will want to. Or be able too, either.

Edited by Jacksgranda
sllepnig
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

They still have to go to Tayside for east region level cup games. They are unlikely to ever wind up in a Tayside heavy division in an EoS context unlike what happened two seasons ago with the east superleague.  The fears are overblown.

That's why I used the word "regularly".....

Well aware they have to travel on ERJFA cup business but after speaking to the Harthill committee man yesterday he made it clear to me that "travelling" is their no.1 issue with joining the EOS.

So if Eyemouth is a problem right now to him,then Angus certainly would be....

How anyone can back Angus sides in particular playing in the LL area is beyond me and I'm not the only one on here that thinks that way !!

I travel regularly to HL games sometimes as a neutral and sometimes to see Deveronvale,Angus to many people down here is undoubtedly in the north.

What Brechin did in trying to coerce the SPFL into barring LL sides from the Challenge cup and League cup just to try and force the LL's hands into shifting the boundary north to the Angus/Aberdeenshire border was a disgrace and should never be forgotten......

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Whitburn Vale said:

...What Brechin did in trying to coerce the SPFL into barring LL sides from the Challenge cup and League cup just to try and force the LL's hands into shifting the boundary north to the Angus/Aberdeenshire border was a disgrace and should never be forgotten...

Maybe I'm too cynical, but what the LL will probably do is try to link the rule change to some concession from the SPFL that favours them. Automatic relegation where Club 42 is concerned might be a bridge too far but well worth taking a swing at to see what the counter offer would be. I suspect the SPFL's first response on hearing that was the threats you describe rather than further negotiation. Time will tell on how it all unfolds but Tayside going into the LL catchment still looks like the probable outcome.

No point getting het up over this stuff. The cooler head that thinks strategically a few steps ahead usually wins in these types of negotiations. The former EoS premier clubs that were in at the foundation of the LL and most of the larger ex-junior present day EoS premier clubs will probably be the losers long term at this point in terms of status in another decade or so once the LL becomes west dominated. They really should have thought more carefully about the longer term implications of Option Z when it was on the table rather than going all cherry menthol about Tom Johnston and a parallel east feeder.

Edited by LongTimeLurker
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Jacksgranda said:

Aye, that might be, after BoD go up I doubt very much if anyone else will want to. Or be able too, either.

Dyce seemingly found the resources from out of thin air to get floodlights. Seemingly just to be able to join the Aberdeenshire FA. Aberdeen University have talked about regaining SFA membership over the years. Montrose Roselea have said their might be interest in getting a SFA licence but weren't thinking about the Highland League.

None of them have exactly been North Super League title contenders, but they and others will probably look into licencing. With a promotion structure tied in place eventually another licenced title contender would stumble into the Highland League.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

They are unlikely to ever wind up in a Tayside heavy division in an EoS context unlike what happened two seasons ago with the east superleague.  The fears are overblown.


Oh no, they really believe they’ll be away to Coldstream “every 2 weeks” :blink: 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Maybe I'm too cynical, but what the LL will probably do is try to link the rule change to some concession from the SPFL that favours them. Automatic relegation where Club 42 is concerned might be a bridge too far but well worth taking a swing at to see what the counter offer would be. I suspect the SPFL's first response on hearing that was the threats you describe rather than further negotiation. Time will tell on how it all unfolds but Tayside going into the LL catchment still looks like the probable outcome.

No point getting het up over this stuff. The cooler head that thinks strategically a few steps ahead usually wins in these types of negotiations. The former EoS premier clubs that were in at the foundation of the LL and most of the larger ex-junior present day EoS premier clubs will probably be the losers long term at this point in terms of status in another decade or so once the LL becomes west dominated. They really should have thought more carefully about the longer term implications of Option Z when it was on the table rather than going all cherry menthol about Tom Johnston and a parallel east feeder.

Option Z was never on the table.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No idea how you can reach that conclusion when the various parties in the PWG meetings were given a set of options to discuss that included Option Z. The postures adopted by both the SJFA and LL/EoS blocked anything other than the emergence of the WoS from being a viable pathway for pyramid entry by clubs from the west. Under those circumstances setting up the WoS and allowing ongoing SJFA membership was the sensible course of action, because there was no other way to first break the logjam and then manage to keep all the west clubs in the same structure.

In the short term the emergence of the WoS as a tier 6 LL feeder was definitely a decisive victory for the LL/EoS over the SJFA in blazer politics terms. Longer term, however, the east is almost certainly going to wind up as the most under-represented part of the country at tier 5 because of the structure that is now in place. The HL can probably be viewed as the main long term winners, especially if they now get to effectively jettison Tayside in de facto terms by only agreeing to negotiate with the north region and NCL as tier 6 feeders.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

No idea how you can reach that conclusion when the various parties in the PWG meetings were given a set of options to discuss that included Option Z. The postures adopted by both the SJFA and LL/EoS blocked anything other than the emergence of the WoS from being a viable pathway for pyramid entry by clubs from the west. Under those circumstances setting up the WoS and allowing ongoing SJFA membership was the sensible course of action, because there was no other way to first break the logjam and then manage to keep all the west clubs in the same structure.

The home work assignment for all the leagues was to discuss and get feedback on 4 ideas that hadn't been fleshed out to any real degree. One idea that had already been rejected by the LL and EoSFL by membership votes. They were also to canvas for any other suggestions and thoughts on the HL/LL boundary.

The 3 way split as a concept had about as much legitimacy behind it as the likes of 12-12-12-12 and 14-14-16. They were ideas spitballed to get through change without any depth or consensus behind them. Which is why following during the following PWG meeting the whole thing was disbanded.

7 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

n the short term the emergence of the WoS as a tier 6 LL feeder was definitely a decisive victory for the LL/EoS over the SJFA in blazer politics terms. Longer term, however, the east is almost certainly going to wind up as the most under-represented part of the country at tier 5 because of the structure that is now in place.

Simple couple of question for everyone that pulls out this line of thinking:

Is the best team in the East worse than the 9th best team in the West? Is the 2nd best team in the East worse than the 10th best in the West? And so on...

Keep in mind it was the East Superleague teams that were happy with signing up for the Lowland Superleague idea, so clearly they're happy with their chances.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

No idea how you can reach that conclusion when the various parties in the PWG meetings were given a set of options to discuss that included Option Z. The postures adopted by both the SJFA and LL/EoS blocked anything other than the emergence of the WoS from being a viable pathway for pyramid entry by clubs from the west. Under those circumstances setting up the WoS and allowing ongoing SJFA membership was the sensible course of action, because there was no other way to first break the logjam and then manage to keep all the west clubs in the same structure.

In the short term the emergence of the WoS as a tier 6 LL feeder was definitely a decisive victory for the LL/EoS over the SJFA in blazer politics terms. Longer term, however, the east is almost certainly going to wind up as the most under-represented part of the country at tier 5 because of the structure that is now in place. The HL can probably be viewed as the main long term winners, especially if they now get to effectively jettison Tayside in de facto terms by only agreeing to negotiate with the north region and NCL as tier 6 feeders.

Option Z was an idea from the side of the juniors. It was never really on the table though. In order for that option to pass, the SPFL would have to agree to 3 feeder leagues. They weren't even at the table so there was no way they could have agreed to it. Plus, they've made it very clear from the start that they would only allow 2 feeder leagues. Initially they even only wanted one, but they conceded on that point to the current system of HL and LL as feeders. Personally, I don't think a 3 region system would be bad, it would make more sense with Scotland's geography imo, but it just wasn't going to happen.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

28 minutes ago, Andy groundhopper said:

Would the HL clubs ever say 'we don't want any  more clubs or divisions because that would hamper our chances of gaining promotion etc ? Just a thought, seems like the NCLfeeder is well accepted, while the Tayside area/clubs are almost hated - like having to go to Beirut for a game !

Well, nobody is hated.

An important thing to consider about the Highland League is that it isn't a single hive mind. There's differences in opinion and with Cove Rangers promoted the supposed 'pro-pyramid' / 'SPFL minded' clubs have lost an ally.

As a league they are open to application. Last year they actually invited Banks O'Dee into the league but were rejected by the club and they listened to an application proposal from Inverness CT for a 'colts' side to enter. You can probably understand why the 'colts' idea never went anywhere.

They've discussed two divisions but at the time it would have been 2x 10 divisions playing 18 games. That was rejected as you can understand due to the massive reduction of games and smaller gates for any 2nd Division side.

Fact is if people actually apply to the League they'd get listened to. They've also been working on this pyramid proposal to get the NCL into it and would probably take the North Juniors in. But it wasn't that long ago (Nov 2018) that the North Juniors said they weren't interested.

As for Tayside. The Highland League helped make the pyramid. They had reps on the SFA committee, Professional Game Board (which was only SFA, SPL and SFL at the time) and Non-Professional Game Board so they shaped it more than most. I don't think a number of clubs would be happy with it, but they'd get on with it. Its never been a Highland League rep that's complained about the possibility of Montrose, and Brechin City being relegated into the League or a Tayside club applying.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Well, nobody is hated.

An important thing to consider about the Highland League is that it isn't a single hive mind. There's differences in opinion and with Cove Rangers promoted the supposed 'pro-pyramid' / 'SPFL minded' clubs have lost an ally.

As a league they are open to application. Last year they actually invited Banks O'Dee into the league but were rejected by the club and they listened to an application proposal from Inverness CT for a 'colts' side to enter. You can probably understand why the 'colts' idea never went anywhere.

They've discussed two divisions but at the time it would have been 2x 10 divisions playing 18 games. That was rejected as you can understand due to the massive reduction of games and smaller gates for any 2nd Division side.

Fact is if people actually apply to the League they'd get listened to. They've also been working on this pyramid proposal to get the NCL into it and would probably take the North Juniors in. But it wasn't that long ago (Nov 2018) that the North Juniors said they weren't interested.

As for Tayside. The Highland League helped make the pyramid. They had reps on the SFA committee, Professional Game Board (which was only SFA, SPL and SFL at the time) and Non-Professional Game Board so they shaped it more than most. I don't think a number of clubs would be happy with it, but they'd get on with it. Its never been a Highland League rep that's complained about the possibility of Montrose, and Brechin City being relegated into the League or a Tayside club applying.

 

Good points, think the North juniors are happy with their lot , reality over ambition to move upwards,sensible I'd say. Am guessing that a HL 2 wouldn't include any  clubs with much to offer tbh, the NCL feeder looks good and gives clubs a decent starting point to progress. Would the Tayside thing be a large number of clubs entering ? A bit like the Sth West Peninsula League down here, miles from anywhere,with the Western Lge based some 100 miles further north.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 minutes ago, Andy groundhopper said:

Good points, think the North juniors are happy with their lot , reality over ambition to move upwards,sensible I'd say. Am guessing that a HL 2 wouldn't include any  clubs with much to offer tbh, the NCL feeder looks good and gives clubs a decent starting point to progress. Would the Tayside thing be a large number of clubs entering ? A bit like the Sth West Peninsula League down here, miles from anywhere,with the Western Lge based some 100 miles further north.

When it comes to Tayside I wouldn't expect any news on that front until the new year and the EoSFL start looking for applications. Tayside clubs either try to apply or don't. Until the Tayside clubs actually engage with the pyramid nobody else is going to give them much thought and just get on with it.

NCL clubs will have issues getting licenced before getting into the league. With the likes of Brora Rangers, Wick Academy, and Clachnacuddin already in the Highland. As well as the ICT & Ross County youth teams most of the best players are from the Highland region are already hoovered up. Any NCL side without financial backing is going to float around the botttom at best.

North Juniors would strengthen on the field but would sway the league even more so into a Northeast league which would upset those that try to balance Highland / Aberdeenshire. Again you've got the issue of not getting licenced before that becomes a concern.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's important to remember that all clubs beneath the Tier 5 Division won't have to be licenced so the cost of investing in facilities etc wouldn't be a deterrent.

In the event that the NCL, North and Tayside Juniors joined up and Tier 6 was run on an the basis of these three  geographically determined areas travel wouldn't be an issue either.

Joining and not getting licenced would be just the same as it is now i.e. just playing NCL or Juniors from the  North or Tayside. I guess the rules would be amended to comply with the Highland League Rules. Tier 6 may require facilities to match other Tier 6 leagues but, even then, time could be allowed for clubs to comply. Other clubs could fit into Tier 7.

If clubs went for such a structure they could even become licenced without, in practice, being at significant risk of promotion to Tier 5.

Regionalised Tier 6 and 7 etc leagues would be much as now so clubs could remain happy with their lot.

One thing is likely if the NCL, North and Tayside Juniors do join in. Tier 5 in the Highland League will become more competitive and the geographical spread of the clubs will change.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Dev said:

 Tier 5 in the Highland League will become more competitive and the geographical spread of the clubs will change.

That more than anything is probably the concern. There's a reason why Strathspey Thistle got accepted back in 2009 despite being the poorest on the field performer. The clubs were trying to balance the regional make up of the league.

Which is something that was mentioned back in 2014 when attempting the 2x 10 team divisions. There was a suggestion of trying to have one Highland and one Aberdeenshire side round out the 20. Which on the face of it seems 'local football for local people' but at the same time would also mean a ton of travel for everyone. Its not like a Halkirk United who said in the press they would apply if it happened or Golspie Sutherland are particularly easy travel days.

Its why it will be good to move away from the idea of applications and move to a formal promotion/relegation structure to allow the best clubs on the field to filter through.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...