Scotland's Shame

[Cerberus]

Remember when the SNP trying to stop sectarianism at the football and all the bigoted neds were up in arms?

Good times Scotland, good times.

[GNU_Linux]

Pish tribute to UB40?

red red hand wine?

[IrishBhoy]

1 hour ago, Cerberus said:

Remember when the SNP trying to stop sectarianism at the football and all the bigoted neds were up in arms?

Good times Scotland, good times.

To be fair the Bill was an absolute mess that was rushed through with so many grey areas open to different interpretations either by Police Officers or judges. It’s basis was on what a ‘reasonable person’ could find offensive, and that reasonable person didn’t even have to be present for a crime to have been committed. So each police officer or judge has a different view on what this mythical ‘reasonable person’ could find offensive and pass sentence on it. The SNP do a lot of good in this country but I’m glad that Bill has been binned as it was veering into a dangerous place. 

Apart from that, if someone is found to be committing a crime at a football match then we already have the laws in place to deal with them, without having a separate Bill for football only. 

[ancientnoise]

3 hours ago, ZvonimirBoban said:

Utterly shameful the BBC have allowed those comments from Dodds and Ferguson to pass without challenge.

They didn't. They had Michael Stewart on, who was as incredulous as any sane person would be. 

Richard Gordon nipped it in the bud like another sane person, and got everyone back to the fitba. 

[ancientnoise]

2 minutes ago, IrishBhoy said:

To be fair the Bill was an absolute mess that was rushed through with so many grey areas open to different interpretations either by Police Officers or judges. It’s basis was on what a ‘reasonable person’ could find offensive, and that reasonable person didn’t even have to be present for a crime to have been committed. So each police officer or judge has a different view on what this mythical ‘reasonable person’ could find offensive and pass sentence on it. The SNP do a lot of good in this country but I’m glad that Bill has been binned as it was veering into a dangerous place. 

Apart from that, if someone is found to be committing a crime at a football match then we already have the laws in place to deal with them, without having a separate Bill for football only. 

But then, UEFA have moved.

The crucial question now is why haven't the Scottish football authorities?

It's it up to the SNP (or any incumbent party in government) to step in again and do it for them?

 

 

[IrishBhoy]

5 minutes ago, ancientnoise said:

But then, UEFA have moved.

The crucial question now is why haven't the Scottish football authorities?

It's it up to the SNP (or any incumbent party in government) to step in again and do it for them?

 

 

I agree the Scottish football authorities have not done any where near enough to stop the rubbish that both sides of the Old Firm come out with, but there is a difference between what the SFA/UEFA can do and what the Scottish courts can do. If a person has been found to be committing a crime by singing a banned song at a football match then there is well treaded laws in place that can deal with them without having a separate bill that applies only to crimes committed at a football match. 

[ancientnoise]

38 minutes ago, IrishBhoy said:

I agree the Scottish football authorities have not done any where near enough to stop the rubbish that both sides of the Old Firm come out with, but there is a difference between what the SFA/UEFA can do and what the Scottish courts can do. If a person has been found to be committing a crime by singing a banned song at a football match then there is well treaded laws in place that can deal with them without having a separate bill that applies only to crimes committed at a football match. 

Not sure why you're separating responsibilities here.

A football governing body (UEFA) has sanctioned a club for contravening its rules. Our own domestic footballing authority don't. They ignore it.

It's not a complicated puzzle. The answer is quite clear.

 

[IrishBhoy]

3 minutes ago, ancientnoise said:

Not sure why you're separating responsibilities here.

A football governing body (UEFA) has sanctioned a club for contravening its rules. Our own domestic footballing authority don't. They ignore it.

It's not a complicated puzzle. The answer is quite clear.

 

I’m not separating responsibilities. I agree with the point you are making. 

You mentioned the SNP would need to step in to deal with it if the SFA couldn’t. The way the SFA deals with sanctions and the way government deals with the law is completely different. There is no need for parliament to step in as we have existing laws that can deal with this behaviour at football grounds, or any where else in the country. 

[IrishBhoy]

8 minutes ago, ancientnoise said:

Not sure why you're separating responsibilities here.

A football governing body (UEFA) has sanctioned a club for contravening its rules. Our own domestic footballing authority don't. They ignore it.

It's not a complicated puzzle. The answer is quite clear.

 

And I agree that Scottish authorities have been far too slow to deal with these offences, it’s been bubbling up for the past three or four season where fan behaviour has been getting worse, mainly the Old Firm but there’s been instances from other teams too. Hopefully this UEFA sanction will kick the SFA into action but I wouldn’t hold my breath. 

[Ira Gaines]

2 hours ago, Cerberus said:

Remember when the SNP trying to stop sectarianism at the football and all the bigoted neds were up in arms?

Good times Scotland, good times.

Yet another simplistic idiotic take from you, you utter shitebag. 

[ancientnoise]

5 minutes ago, IrishBhoy said:

You mentioned the SNP would need to step in to deal with it if the SFA couldn’t. 

No. I didn't. I said:

"It's it up to the SNP (or any incumbent party in government) to step in again and do it for them?"

A rhetorical question. 

[IrishBhoy]

1 hour ago, ancientnoise said:

No. I didn't. I said:

"It's it up to the SNP (or any incumbent party in government) to step in again and do it for them?"

A rhetorical question. 

Ok. My point was more that we have existing laws in place where courts can deal with individual cases where a crime has been committed at a football match. The SFA are slightly hamstrung as the clubs voted against strict liability. This suits the SFA down to the ground, could you imagine the tin foil hat conspiracy theories that would come out if the SFA had to deal with the OF by closing parts of their stadium.  Both sets of fans are bad enough already but we would be in a situation where we are going through rebel/unionist songs with both sets of fans arguing they aren’t sectarian/offensive. 

[ancientnoise]

15 minutes ago, IrishBhoy said:

Ok. My point was more that we have existing laws in place where courts can deal with individual cases where a crime has been committed at a football match. The SFA are slightly hamstrung as the clubs voted against strict liability. This suits the SFA down to the ground, could you imagine the tin foil hat conspiracy theories that would come out if the SFA had to deal with the OF by closing parts of their stadium.  Both sets of fans are bad enough already but we would be in a situation where we are going through rebel/unionist songs with both sets of fans arguing they aren’t sectarian/offensive. 

Wildly apologist. This is why nothing ever changes.

[IrishBhoy]

18 minutes ago, ancientnoise said:

Wildly apologist. This is why nothing ever changes.

Not at all, I would like nothing more than to rid the game of the outdated nonsense we need to put up with. A football match is not the place to be projecting political or religious views, in my personal opinion. 

You can bet all the money in your pocket that if strict liability was introduced into Scottish football it would be Hibs, Hearts, Aberdeen etc getting hammered for fan behaviour whilst the SFA tip toe around sectarian singing by the OF. The paranoia that is already instilled in OF fans would explode and I don’t think it would be pretty. 

[topcat(The most tip top)]

The Union Bears are not bigoted or racist in the slightest, no sir....
 
I apologise to anyone offended by the following material, I too feel offended by it.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Dark clothing ?

They’ve missed a trick by not going for Black and Tan

[jagfox]

[ZvonimirBoban]

7 hours ago, ancientnoise said:

They didn't. They had Michael Stewart on, who was as incredulous as any sane person would be. 

Richard Gordon nipped it in the bud like another sane person, and got everyone back to the fitba. 

The same dinosaurs have been on that show for as long as I can remember and whilst 90% of the content is old firm related they have never challenged the sectiarian elephant in the room. Richard Gordon “nipped it in the bud” as you say and that’s the problem, they’ve been nipping it in the bud for decades and look where we are now. We need to be highlighting, shaming and challenging these behaviours not turning a blind eye. UEFA has stepped in and with one action it has already prompted more reaction and discussion than Scottish football has conjured in history.  

 

Lets not confuse the two, sectarianism and racism are the same thing, something uefa has had to make clear. Ferguson’s comments on how the songs are not appropriate NOW is another example of how sectarianism, unlike racism, has been dismissed as banter. Richard Gordon et al do nothing to help Scottish football move into the 21st century. Get these Neanderthals off air and stop pandering to the bigots by making excuses for orange order kits.

[pozbaird]

52 minutes ago, topcat(The most tip top) said:

 

Dark clothing ?

They’ve missed a trick by not going for Black and Tan

 

Three cheers for the black, slate grey and brown, three cheers for the black, slate grey and brown. For the Primark and the Poundland, and the H! AND! M!

[Jambomo]

12 hours ago, IrishBhoy said:

You can bet all the money in your pocket that if strict liability was introduced into Scottish football it would be Hibs, Hearts, Aberdeen etc getting hammered for fan behaviour whilst the SFA tip toe around sectarian singing by the OF. The paranoia that is already instilled in OF fans would explode and I don’t think it would be pretty. 

I agree with you that this would probably happen, yet If the SFA can show that Hearts, Aberdeen etc fans have done this, then they should get done.

The problem would be maintaining proportion. It would be better if this was done by a separate body, or perhaps the SFA overseen by the Scottish Government (now UEFA have finally recognised the issue) to ensure that offences are seen equally and that punishments are evenly applied. 

It is sad to admit, but does anyone really trust the SFA to be even-handed with this?

[Trinidad Saint]

In my opinion it stems outside of football. We have sectarian marches parading through just about every Town and City in Scotland. I believe if such institutions that promote sectarianism were banned, it may well have a knock on effect in time on the terraces.