The official Boris pm cluster-fuck thread

[Fullerene]

4 hours ago, MixuFruit said:

I can see nothing to be proud of regarding colonialism.

That is part of the problem.  A century ago somebody might say "those savages will be forever grateful that we taught them how to read and write".   I doubt anyone would try that now.  So if the empire is nothing to be proud of - what else?

Most other countries involved regard WW2 as a traumatic experience that they would rather forget about.  Britain is fairly unique in having fond memories of the whole thing.

Edited October 7, 2020 by Fullerene

[speckled tangerine]

34 minutes ago, MixuFruit said:

Depends on your perspective I suppose. My pride in my grandfather shelling f**k out the Germans in 44 and 45 is totally divorced from any sense of British patriotism, because it has no relevance to my life now where the current government has employed messaging that veers uncomfortably close to prewar German propaganda. That isn't true for my father's generation who enjoyed a transformational experience with medical care, education and so on. At the time this genuinely was only possible in the union. With distance you can view these things a bit more dispassionately. I can see nothing to be proud of regarding colonialism.

My great uncle was in bomber command, albeit ground crew. He was absolutely ashamed of what he saw (in his view) the part of civilian deaths towards the end of the war. Didn't feel too comfortable with the jingoism towards the end of his life.

My mum's grandfather was a sergeant in the Royal Scots in the great war. Was severely wounded at passchendaele but lived. 

"My job was to get my boys back alive. The fucking toffs and Haig didn't care" he told my mum. He wore a poppy and that was it. Rarely talked about his experiences.

The whole "rememberance" thing these days would have made them both gag. It's an industry these days used by people who have no first hand knowledge of these conflicts for their own ends.

[NotThePars]

That is part of the problem.  A century ago somebody might say "those savages will be forever grateful that we talk them how to read and write".   I doubt anyone would try that now.  So if the empire is nothing to be proud of - what else?

The British public are broadly supportive of the Empire’s legacy and loads of apologist academics still insist on this line

[DeeTillEhDeh]

Unpopular opinions thread for this pish but if the British & Americans had not defeated the Germans in North Africa, the Germans could have beaten Russia and been in a position to sue for peace with the USA. The British do have a claim to have been vital to winning WW2 but not in the way they tend to portray it. Dunno why they never go on El Alamein etc instead of the Battle of Britain on this basis as it's far more significant imo.

Not to mention the battle in the Far East. 

Japanese efforts to grab and hold resources was defeated and so the axis powers couldn't support each other.

 

My gran lost her brother because of that fight - captured by the Japanese and held in one of their POW Labour camps - he survived that but was so fucked up with PTSD that he ended up gassing himself at home with the oven - utterly tragic.

 

 

[jakedee]

So much this.
I my experience of meeting ex military who served in WWII ( and I've encountered many) very rarely do they comment on their experiences.
That appears to be left to the jingoistic, who have never seen the sharp end of a rifle.

My great uncle was in bomber command, albeit ground crew. He was absolutely ashamed of what he saw (in his view) the part of civilian deaths towards the end of the war. Didn't feel too comfortable with the jingoism towards the end of his life.
My mum's grandfather was a sergeant in the Royal Scots in the great war. Was severely wounded at passchendaele but lived. 
"My job was to get my boys back alive. The fucking toffs and Haig didn't care" he told my mum. He wore a poppy and that was it. Rarely talked about his experiences.
The whole "rememberance" thing these days would have made them both gag. It's an industry these days used by people who have no first hand knowledge of these conflicts for their own ends.

[SANTAN]

1 hour ago, GiGi said:

Stormzy is raging, absolutely raging

What am I supposed to be raging about exactly? You've lost me here... 

[MacGafraidh]

I put this in the EPL thread but it mentions dear Boris and his incompetence. 

At West Ham there could be legal proceedings about their lease at the Olympic Stadium organized by E20 and the LLDC. Here is a cutting from that article (link below)

”

In December 2017, a damning report into the mismanagement of London Stadium was published by Mayor of London Sadiq Khan. The report detailed what the London Assembly described as a “catalogue of errors” involving the transformation of the venue from an athletics facility into the home of West Ham.

In the report, Khan’s predecessor, now Prime Minister Boris Johnson, was heavily criticised for the role he played in the transformation process. The report found that the taxpayer had been left to foot an annual loss of around £20m (€21.9m/$25.8m) due to the mistakes made by the previous regime.”

https://www.thestadiumbusiness.com/2020/10/07/lldc-and-e20-commence-legal-action-over-london-stadium-lease-deal/

 

Edited October 7, 2020 by MacGafraidh
Typo

[SandyCromarty]

2 hours ago, speckled tangerine said:

My great uncle was in bomber command, albeit ground crew. He was absolutely ashamed of what he saw (in his view) the part of civilian deaths towards the end of the war. Didn't feel too comfortable with the jingoism towards the end of his life.

My mum's grandfather was a sergeant in the Royal Scots in the great war. Was severely wounded at passchendaele but lived. 

"My job was to get my boys back alive. The fucking toffs and Haig didn't care" he told my mum. He wore a poppy and that was it. Rarely talked about his experiences.

The whole "rememberance" thing these days would have made them both gag. It's an industry these days used by people who have no first hand knowledge of these conflicts for their own ends.

The horror of civilian deaths during bombing was starkly shown last night on the Blitz programme which focused on the bombing of Clydebank, IN Jellico Street 15 members of the Rocks family were killed during one raid. 

[Fullerene]

Almost every Vietnam War film that I can think of involves a traumatised American soldier trying to make sense of a brutal conflict in a foreign land.

I seriously doubt that WW2 was any less brutal or traumatic but because we ended up on the winning side, there seems to be this idea that it was actually jolly good fun.

[Dunfermline Don]

The horror of civilian deaths during bombing was starkly shown last night on the Blitz programme which focused on the bombing of Clydebank, IN Jellico Street 15 members of the Rocks family were killed during one raid. 

You do know that British bombing killed more in Hamburg during one raid than died from Luftwaffe bombing in the U.K. during the whole war.
But we were the ‘good guys’ so I suppose that was acceptable!

[SANTAN]

15 minutes ago, Dunfermline Don said:

You do know that British bombing killed more in Hamburg during one raid than died from Luftwaffe bombing in the U.K. during the whole war.
But we were the ‘good guys’ so I suppose that was acceptable!

I think Dresden for most relatively informed people is the best indicator that we weren't quite so virtuous as some may suggest... 

I must say the current conversation we've been having is good to see, a lot of people explaining eloquently how they are tied to the world wars without being patriotic so to speak. Just goes to show what I was saying that the idea that English people are more affected by such things is stupid and retrospectively ignorant. And quickly in reference to the colonialism point before I also don't see any positives from it like some weirdo Brexiteer gammony types do but their is also a similar Scottish Nationalist type of person that also thinks that way and that's all I was pointing out before. 

[D Angelo Barksdale]

30 minutes ago, Stormzy said:

I must say the current conversation we've been having is good to see, a lot of people explaining eloquently how they are tied to the world wars without being patriotic so to speak. Just goes to show what I was saying that the idea that English people are more affected by such things is stupid and retrospectively ignorant.

Hmm not sure about this. WW2 jingoism is clearly a factor in English politics. There's a massive difference between the quiet reverence of 'we and others did what had to be done' and the '2 world wars, 1 world cup' superiority complex.

You can also draw a direct line from WW2/Churchill through Falklands/Thatcher to Johnson/Brexit.

This is before we look at the Corbyn/the Left are traitors narrative.

[DukDukGoose]

4 minutes ago, Henderson to deliver ..... said:

Hmm not sure about this. WW2 jingoism is clearly a factor in English politics. There's a massive difference between the quiet reverence of 'we and others did what had to be done' and the '2 world wars, 1 world cup' superiority complex.

You can also draw a direct line from WW2/Churchill through Falklands/Thatcher to Johnson/Brexit.

This is before we look at the Corbyn/the Left are traitors narrative.

"Do the dambusters."

[SANTAN]

11 minutes ago, Henderson to deliver ..... said:

Hmm not sure about this. WW2 jingoism is clearly a factor in English politics. There's a massive difference between the quiet reverence of 'we and others did what had to be done' and the '2 world wars, 1 world cup' superiority complex.

You can also draw a direct line from WW2/Churchill through Falklands/Thatcher to Johnson/Brexit.

This is before we look at the Corbyn/the Left are traitors narrative.

Yeah of course I would acknowledge it's definitely more prominent in that type of politics but it is also relevant in Scottish general public, it's not the political framing that bugs me it's the ideological stance that tries to say this stuff solely exists within Unionists but not with Indy supporters. 

[The_Kincardine]

22 minutes ago, Henderson to deliver ..... said:

You can also draw a direct line from WW2/Churchill through Falklands/Thatcher to Johnson/Brexit.

You have to look back further than that.  Our islands' rift with 'continental Europe' began, for Scotland, in 1560 when we sided with England over France and brought The Auld Alliance to an end.

Edited October 7, 2020 by The_Kincardine

[D Angelo Barksdale]

20 minutes ago, Stormzy said:

Yeah of course I would acknowledge it's definitely more prominent in that type of politics but it is also relevant in Scottish general public, it's not the political framing that bugs me it's the ideological stance that tries to say this stuff solely exists within Unionists but not with Indy supporters. 

If you're talking about exceptionalism, then yes I agree.

I don't think there's much of a militaristic or empirical bent to Independence supporters or the movement though. Despite Scots historical role in both.*

*For the benefit of Kincy.

[NotThePars]

20 minutes ago, Stormzy said:

Yeah of course I would acknowledge it's definitely more prominent in that type of politics but it is also relevant in Scottish general public, it's not the political framing that bugs me it's the ideological stance that tries to say this stuff solely exists within Unionists but not with Indy supporters. 

I don't think this is true and the big problem with many Scottish nationalists is less about World War Two jingoism and more the complete denialism among some supporters about Scotland's role in establishing the Empire and how our country was more often than not the oppressor than the oppressed. These are usually the same people that wonder why the West of Scotland has such a powerfully psychic investment in Northern Ireland as well.

 

In fairness to the SNP I think most people in that party acknowledge the ways the Union powerfully bound Scots ideologically for a long time and that those bond were significantly, and IMO permanently, undermined by Thatcher and the neoliberal revolution she ushered in. They've been the biggest beneficiaries of the fallout and deservedly so tbh. 

[D Angelo Barksdale]

18 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said:

You have to look back further than that.  Our islands' rift with 'continental Europe' began, for Scotland, in 1560 when we sided with England over France and brought The Auld Alliance to an end.

Small minded, empty headed natters turning their backs on our European friends.

Shakes head.

[SANTAN]

3 minutes ago, NotThePars said:

I don't think this is true and the big problem with many Scottish nationalists is less about World War Two jingoism and more the complete denialism among some supporters about Scotland's role in establishing the Empire and how our country was more often than not the oppressor than the oppressed. These are usually the same people that wonder why the West of Scotland has such a powerfully psychic investment in Northern Ireland as well.

 

In fairness to the SNP I think most people in that party acknowledge the ways the Union powerfully bound Scots ideologically for a long time and that those bond were significantly, and IMO permanently, undermined by Thatcher and the neoliberal revolution she ushered in. They've been the biggest beneficiaries of the fallout and deservedly so tbh. 

Yeah, well put. Out of dots coz I have so many enemies I need to constantly repell with the red ones but I'd give that a green if i could. I agree with the first part a lot and you've worded it better than i could've. 

[The_Kincardine]

3 minutes ago, Henderson to deliver ..... said:

Small minded, empty headed natters turning their backs on our European friends.

Shakes head.

Eh?  Natterism is a 20th C innovation of the disaffected and the aggrieved.  We've gone over this so often.