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git-intae-thum
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If the US genuinely didn't want the UK to have a deterrent it could simply refuse to sell us the missiles. But of course they want us to have a deterrent not simply to spread the cost but to maintain the fiction of NATO being a genuine alliance.
They would welcome the deterrent being based in Georgia. They would welcome the rent and the opportunities for integration and training.

The missiles are leased, its us tech, if they didnt want us to have them id be utterly surprised if they didnt have a software backdoor to render them useless. This notion of a uk nuclear deterrent is nonsense. We could never use it without US say so. Its all a facade and mental that more dont recognise this.
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33 minutes ago, WATTOO said:

Until such a time when we're in a position to set our own policies and are in complete control of our own finances and resources, then it really matters not what has happened in the past as part of a UK framework as this will have absolutely no bearing on the future.

 

I don't disagree with the sentiment but we do have debt and it will still exist when we have complete control of our finances.

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On 31/07/2019 at 22:03, Suspect Device said:

China's debt could be $6 trillion dollars. It's hard to get real figures just like much of it's economy. It's very opaque.

Not sure if there are many countries which have no debt. It''s the accepted way of life. The strange economics of Thatcher talking about running a country like running a house budget is just fanciful BS.

That's true, but an ever increasing debt with no prospect of it ever going the other way to any serious level obviously is not going to end well.

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9 hours ago, strichener said:

I don't disagree with the sentiment but we do have debt and it will still exist when we have complete control of our finances.

What are these debts for which an independent Scotland will be liable?

It's all very vague. Do you mean current public sector debt commitments?

It is highly probable that independent Scotland will initially run a deficit. It is also likely we will assume a portion of UK debt. These are macroeconomic and diplomatic decisions for our first government.

There are also obviously numerous individuals and organisations both private and public within Scotland that currently owe capital debt. That of the public bodies, one would assume will be backed by a commitment from the new state.

However.....

that is not a legal liability. It is not the new nation states debt until it chooses to assume it.

The fact we will almost definitely take it on does not change the initial position.

Scotland, as in its current entity status (whatever that may be) or as in the proposed forthcoming new nation state, does not currently have (as it's incapable of having), and will not initially have, any national debt liabilty. 

There is no legal precedent or basis to suggest otherwise.

 

 

 

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16 hours ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:


The missiles are leased, its us tech, if they didnt want us to have them id be utterly surprised if they didnt have a software backdoor to render them useless. This notion of a uk nuclear deterrent is nonsense. We could never use it without US say so. Its all a facade and mental that more dont recognise this.

In the 21st century a nuclear deterrent is just nonsense as the real threats are Economic and Cyber based and we appear to be committing suicide on at least one of those in any case.

Taking a country like Norway as an example, they are one of the wealthiest on the planet with regards to natural resources, yet I don't see them requiring a nuclear deterrent.

Seriously, what is the actual rationale for having these armaments as any sort of usage would undoubtedly result in total annihilation in any case, irrespective of the cut off nose to spite face argument of "but we got them as well"..............

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8 hours ago, git-intae-thum said:

What are these debts for which an independent Scotland will be liable?

It's all very vague. Do you mean current public sector debt commitments?

It is highly probable that independent Scotland will initially run a deficit. It is also likely we will assume a portion of UK debt. These are macroeconomic and diplomatic decisions for our first government.

There are also obviously numerous individuals and organisations both private and public within Scotland that currently owe capital debt. That of the public bodies, one would assume will be backed by a commitment from the new state.

However.....

that is not a legal liability. It is not the new nation states debt until it chooses to assume it.

The fact we will almost definitely take it on does not change the initial position.

Scotland, as in its current entity status (whatever that may be) or as in the proposed forthcoming new nation state, does not currently have (as it's incapable of having), and will not initially have, any national debt liabilty. 

There is no legal precedent or basis to suggest otherwise.

 

 

 

Are you seriously suggesting that, for example, existing Scottish Water loans from the EIB would only exist in a post independence Scotland IF the new government decided to recognise them?  Or that PFI/NFD contracts would cease to exist and we would inherit all these assets for no cost? Would a Scottish Goverment cut the pensions of former or future public sector workers to eliminate the deficit (debt) in the pension schemes?  It serves no purpose to kid-on that Scotland can somehow walk away from the UK with no debt.

I note your use of the term "national debt" as a way of trying to segregate the borrowings but quite clearly Scotland in it's current entity status has £1.8trn of national debt.

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10 minutes ago, strichener said:

Are you seriously suggesting that, for example, existing Scottish Water loans from the EIB would only exist in a post independence Scotland IF the new government decided to recognise them?  Or that PFI/NFD contracts would cease to exist and we would inherit all these assets for no cost? Would a Scottish Goverment cut the pensions of former or future public sector workers to eliminate the deficit (debt) in the pension schemes?  It serves no purpose to kid-on that Scotland can somehow walk away from the UK with no debt.

I note your use of the term "national debt" as a way of trying to segregate the borrowings but quite clearly Scotland in it's current entity status has £1.8trn of national debt.

I think my post quite clearly explained both the legal and practical situation.

Scotland has no, and and an independent Scotland will have no, legal debt liabilty. That is a factual statement.

In practice even though it has no legal liability it is not conceivable that it will not assume that of the outstanding public sector. Share of UK debt is for negotiation. I have already made this clear in my posts. That, however, does not change the validity of the original statement with regards the legal status. Scotland does not have debt.

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Currently we are spending more than we are bringing in. I'm not saying free education and prescriptions are bad but someone has to pay for it.
There is no way banks would allow scotland to walk away from debt responsibility. Each household in Scotland is due money through mortgages and loans as in england and Wales. We created the debt in the same way. Government borrowing for civil infrastructure etc maybe we can argue that.
It's a massively complicated issue and not something that we can just walk away from. Going independent would take a decade to sort out.
Scottish people cant face it now after brexit.
Its game over.
The banks will accept whatever is agreed by both parties.
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