Billy Gilmour

[velo army]

13 hours ago, Satoshi said:

Molotov with the classic Scottish football used to be great and is now full of rubbish players who can't make it routine.

At Billy Gilmours age, Alan Hansen was playing for Partick Thistle in the Scottish second tier.

Stop writing off players so young and being incredibly negative about everything to do with Scottish football.

Classic things were better in ma day denialism. Life moves on.

 

Billy Gilmour is 3 months off his 22nd birthday. By that age Hansen had played a full season for the Jags in the Premier Division (when we finished 5th) and just been signed by Liverpool. He had 86 senior games under his belt and then went on to play regularly (sporadically in his first season) for the top side in England and Europe. They are not comparable.

Players need to stop chasing the quick big money contracts and believing the myth that training with "top" coaches and players and playing for the under 23's is the best route to success. Andy Robertson, John McGinn, Stuart Armstrong and Kieran Tierney are proof that developing close to home while getting first team minutes is the way to go. Perhaps a bit of selection bias there, but I can't think of anyone apart from Aaron Hickey who has had few first team appearances (and Hickey made 24) or none and gone on to have any sort of successful career.

 

[Captain_Sensible]

John McGovern is an interesting subject.

He won the English league title in 1972, reached the European Cup Semi in 1973, finished 3rd in the league in 1974. 
 

McGovern didn’t make the 74 WC squad and Willie Ormond took Hearts’ Donald Ford……

McGovern was still only 28 by the time of the 78 WC and captained Notts Forest to the English Lesgue title in 78 (and the European Cup in 79 and 80) yet again failed to make the WC squad.

In his place, Ally McLeod took Bruce Rioch instead who, ironically had replaced McGovern at Derby (and himself won the league with Derby in 75).

However, Rioch was on the wane by then, a couple of years older than McGovern and would soon be papped out on loan to lesser clubs.

This was part of Ally McLeod’s failure - backing ageing players and inferior home based players, eg Rioch, Tom Forsyth, Derek Johnstone, Joe Harper, Willie Johnston, Alan Rough, Stewart Kennedy, etc instead of the likes of McGovern, Hansen, Souness, Andy Gray, Ian Wallace, Jim Blyth, John Robertson, George Burley

Edited March 23 by Captain_Sensible

[Satoshi]

7 hours ago, Binos said:

I think seeing as England got to a wc semi and wales a euros semi fairly recently puts that in doubt 

We however have produced virtually no one other than the two left backs and a clutch of defensive midfielders in 25 years

 

6 hours ago, Binos said:

You were saying it's a British problem   not producing players

A British problem which hasn't effected England or Wales 

 

 

6 hours ago, Binos said:

And now it's disproportionately shite

Let's be clear - Binos is not a Scotland fan.

He despises the national team, and every post he makes is critical.

Absolutely no chance he is a foreigner taking the piss, this is very much self hatred. It seeps from his every pore, he absolutely doesn't want Scotland to do well and is delighted when the team or any player does badly or doesn't play.

I can only imagine it's a drastically sad life to live.

Or course, back in reality, England have an excellent claim to being footballs greatest underachievers. They have a manager who complains publicly about the chronic lack of domestic players in the top division which gets worse every year.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/64988328

No football nation in their right mind wants to emulate them.

Wales, meanwhile, who Scotland have a 63% win ratio against and have qualified for 7 more world cups, are back to having a crap squad again after a few years in the sun. They are better at us in football, in the same way we are better than them in rugby (very temporarily and totally against long term historical trends).

4 hours ago, velo army said:

Billy Gilmour is 3 months off his 22nd birthday. By that age Hansen had played a full season for the Jags in the Premier Division (when we finished 5th) and just been signed by Liverpool. He had 86 senior games under his belt and then went on to play regularly (sporadically in his first season) for the top side in England and Europe. They are not comparable.

Players need to stop chasing the quick big money contracts and believing the myth that training with "top" coaches and players and playing for the under 23's is the best route to success. Andy Robertson, John McGinn, Stuart Armstrong and Kieran Tierney are proof that developing close to home while getting first team minutes is the way to go. Perhaps a bit of selection bias there, but I can't think of anyone apart from Aaron Hickey who has had few first team appearances (and Hickey made 24) or none and gone on to have any sort of successful career.

 

I checked the year age (not the month) but fine. Hansen's career by Gilmours age was far less distinguished - there's no doubt about that.

Not that it really matters anyway, the whole thing was about not writing Gilmour off at a young age.

Football has completely changed since the 80s. The same fantasists who wish things were like back in the good ol' days would say the same about the 60s when they were in the 80s.

It's complete pish and totally irrelevant to the current national team.

There is a valid discussion in saying that players should have lots of senior games at a lower level before moving to a big club. That argument can go either way, the most successful small nations like Uruguay and Croatia intentionally produce players for top level European football rather than their (relatively poor) domestic leagues. Id actually rather Scotland did that but having a mixture of both works too.

McGinn has had a fantastic few weeks, previously dismissed as just a Smith (then Gerrard) favourite he has unsurprisingly made a huge impact under Emery too, even being singled out on MOTD recently.

That receives zero posts on this forum, Gilmour doesn't make the bench in a cup game (for unknown reasons) and this thread melts down into things were better in ma day denialism.

Football and life moves on, deal with it. Gilmour has plenty of time to make good on his potential. I hope he starts against Cyprus, will be his kind of game.

 

[Bing.McCrosby]

I'd wager its an eminently sadder life thinking every person that disagrees with you about trivial matters such as football must hate themself.

Edited March 24 by BingMcCrosby

[RandomGuy.]

Scottish footballers were better, but they also had an easier route to top club, in the past. Thats how ive always seen it.

[Monkey Tennis]

31 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

Scottish footballers were better, but they also had an easier route to top club, in the past. Thats how ive always seen it.

It's pretty much that simple.

Both elements are true.

[Molotov]

 

3 hours ago, Satoshi said:

Gilmour has plenty of time to make good on his potential. I hope he starts against Cyprus, will be his kind of game.

 

Agreed. And follows it up with a huge part in a win over Spain on Tuesday.

No one denies BG has talent.

When he was signed by an elite club in England around 15/16 we all had great hopes that he would thrive in a better environment training with far superior players than at Murray Park.

His full league debut for Chelsea was three years ago against Everton. 

BG has gone from playing for Chelsea in the CL and being part of the winning squad in the CL final in May 2021.
He was MOTM for Scotland against one of the eventual finalists at Wembley at EURO2020 in June 2021.

At that stage of his career he had managers and pundits drooling over his impact in big games. 

The concern I raise is the current lack of current competitive match time at Brighton. That’s not me being critical of BG. 

Let’s hope that these two international games kickstart his career and the performances he puts in for Scotland forces his club manager to use him far more.

[NickMcG]

I think comparing where Gilmour is to other top players when they were his age somewhat misses the point. I'm comparing Gilmour to where he was on 2021. 

[NickMcG]

10 hours ago, velo army said:

Billy Gilmour is 3 months off his 22nd birthday. By that age Hansen had played a full season for the Jags in the Premier Division (when we finished 5th) and just been signed by Liverpool. He had 86 senior games under his belt and then went on to play regularly (sporadically in his first season) for the top side in England and Europe. They are not comparable.

Players need to stop chasing the quick big money contracts and believing the myth that training with "top" coaches and players and playing for the under 23's is the best route to success. Andy Robertson, John McGinn, Stuart Armstrong and Kieran Tierney are proof that developing close to home while getting first team minutes is the way to go. Perhaps a bit of selection bias there, but I can't think of anyone apart from Aaron Hickey who has had few first team appearances (and Hickey made 24) or none and gone on to have any sort of successful career.

 

There is a fair point here though Andy Robertson and KT were in slightly different positions. Robertson easily could have left football all together when he was released by Celtic.

[BB_Bino]

On 23/03/2023 at 09:07, ahemps said:

Celtic and Rangers are awful at developing talent and have to take a look at themselves for this. They play in a non competitive league where they have a huge opportunity to give kids playing time but they choose not too. Ajax and Benfica are in the exact same scenario in that they are in a 2-3 horse race but manage to develop talent at an impressive rate, the teams they compete with Porto, Sporting, PSV and Feyenoord also do a good job of this. The OF could play 1-2 youths every home game (except against each other) and still win comfortably and probably do the same away from home as well. They could be giving game time to many and finding a few diamonds but they absolutely fail in this regard.

Absolutely spot on, yet they hoover up talent at youth level, stifling the development of youngsters. They'll argue that it's down to not having B Teams in the league, pish, it's down to their own internal systems.  

[Binos]

7 hours ago, Satoshi said:

 

 

Let's be clear - Binos is not a Scotland fan.

He despises the national team, and every post he makes is critical.

Absolutely no chance he is a foreigner taking the piss, this is very much self hatred. It seeps from his every pore, he absolutely doesn't want Scotland to do well and is delighted when the team or any player does badly or doesn't play.

I can only imagine it's a drastically sad life to live.

Or course, back in reality, England have an excellent claim to being footballs greatest underachievers. They have a manager who complains publicly about the chronic lack of domestic players in the top division which gets worse every year.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/64988328

No football nation in their right mind wants to emulate them.

Wales, meanwhile, who Scotland have a 63% win ratio against and have qualified for 7 more world cups, are back to having a crap squad again after a few years in the sun. They are better at us in football, in the same way we are better than them in rugby (very temporarily and totally against long term historical trends).

I checked the year age (not the month) but fine. Hansen's career by Gilmours age was far less distinguished - there's no doubt about that.

Not that it really matters anyway, the whole thing was about not writing Gilmour off at a young age.

Football has completely changed since the 80s. The same fantasists who wish things were like back in the good ol' days would say the same about the 60s when they were in the 80s.

It's complete pish and totally irrelevant to the current national team.

There is a valid discussion in saying that players should have lots of senior games at a lower level before moving to a big club. That argument can go either way, the most successful small nations like Uruguay and Croatia intentionally produce players for top level European football rather than their (relatively poor) domestic leagues. Id actually rather Scotland did that but having a mixture of both works too.

McGinn has had a fantastic few weeks, previously dismissed as just a Smith (then Gerrard) favourite he has unsurprisingly made a huge impact under Emery too, even being singled out on MOTD recently.

That receives zero posts on this forum, Gilmour doesn't make the bench in a cup game (for unknown reasons) and this thread melts down into things were better in ma day denialism.

Football and life moves on, deal with it. Gilmour has plenty of time to make good on his potential. I hope he starts against Cyprus, will be his kind of game.

 

Weesht

[Binos]

Our young players don't get game time and don't develop 

Lowry at rangers latest example 

That's why we don't produce players anymore 

 

[KnightswoodBear]

2 minutes ago, Binos said:

Our young players don't get game time and don't develop 

Lowry at rangers latest example 

That's why we don't produce players anymore 

 

There is rumours that Lowry's attitude needs a bit of work before he starts getting game time again.

[Binos]

11 minutes ago, KnightswoodBear said:

There is rumours that Lowry's attitude needs a bit of work before he starts getting game time again.

He's played a handful of games

He'll stick around till 24 at his boyhood club

Then leave get regular games and come good circa 27, get a few caps then fizzle out,  another one lost

All these names of the past were playing full seasons 19-24 and learning,  getting better, the only way you can at football,  by playing 

Edited March 24 by Binos

[HeartsOfficialMoaner]

10 minutes ago, Binos said:

He's played a handful of games

He'll stick around till 24 at his boyhood club

Then leave get regular games and come good circa 27, get a few caps then fizzle out,  another one lost

All these names of the past were playing full seasons 19-24 and learning,  getting better, the only way you can at football,  by playing 

I remember Lovenkrands speaking about how young Rangers players are happy to just stay at the club but in Denmark young people are keen to leave and go out on adventure. He thought it was strange that young Scottish people just stay at home.

[Self-raising Lazarus]

53 minutes ago, HeartsOfficialMoaner said:

I remember Lovenkrands speaking about how young Rangers players are happy to just stay at the club but in Denmark young people are keen to leave and go out on adventure. He thought it was strange that young Scottish people just stay at home.

I think there's an element of that, and you remedy it by focusing on developing the person, as opposed to just their footballing ability. I've always felt in Scotland we should push our kids to go out and explore, see and live in the world rather than just this little corner or Britain. Does seem to be more common with this group however.

[Super_A]

7 hours ago, Binos said:

Our young players don't get game time and don't develop 

Lowry at rangers latest example 

That's why we don't produce players anymore 

 

Lowry has been injured the vast majority of this season, that's why he hasn't played.

[Binos]

2 hours ago, Super_A said:

Lowry has been injured the vast majority of this season, that's why he hasn't played.

Aye that's it

Same as all the other young Scottish players,  for 25 years 

[Gordopolis]

Lowry has been injured for some of this season.

It is also well documented that he was dropped for a spell due to attitude problems.

 

 

[Theroadlesstravelled]

Gilmour’s development is coming along very well. Another 90 minutes on the bench today.

Clarke is just bedding him in.