Billy Gilmour

[aberdeen1970]

12 hours ago, Satoshi said:

He is playing more regularly than he was when he was first signed, he started a game last week! I think he will make more appearances in the coming weeks too.

And we all know it's 17 minutes in the league, it's been posted several times, only Bing seemed to get it wrong.

I think your argument falls down when you start counting injury time time wasting substitutions as meaningful appearances. 

[Londonwell]

I don’t think it’s a particularly wild take to suggest Gilmour isn’t doing as well as we thought/hoped at present. That’s not because people think he’s a bad player, quite the opposite, it’s because he looked so good when we broke into first team football. 

I loved/love Gilmour, couldn’t stop raving about him to my pals but through a mix of bad luck and maybe a loss of confidence & form his progress has stagnated. Denying that is denying reality unfortunately. 

Far too early to write him off ofcourse. If he really is the player we hope he is, he’ll come through this sticky patch in his career. The cream rises to the top. If not, he’ll still have a good career, just perhaps not quite at the level that most of us expected. 

[Theroadlesstravelled]

3 hours ago, Satoshi said:

You're clearly not capable of taking part in this debate so please stop with trying to stay involved with this dreadful patter.

I said he's doing fine, of course he could be doing better. He could be doing far worse. His career since he came on the scene is pretty close to what I expected, and pretty much every prediction I have made on this thread about his career trajectory has come true.

Yeah I didn't think of Curtis Jones, he has 9 more appearances than Gilmour. Which means he only has the third most appearances of a CM his age in the Premier League. "Doing terribly" indeed.

Caicedo was punted on loan in his first season at Brighton, but turned into an excellent player. I don't doubt Gilmour, who they purchased for more than double and put straight into the first team squad, will also develop into an excellent player at Brighton.

And yes, clearly there are other successful young central midfielders in Europe. Thanks for pointing this out! Gilmours trajectory hasn't been anywhere near as impressive as, say, Gavi or Bellingham or Pedri. He's a good young player, he might even become an excellent player, but there's clearly better central midfielders of his age in the world.

I don't think it's stalled, it's hit reality. Playmakers take more time to develop, one or two excellent appearances isn't enough to sustain a career. In the last two seasons Gilmour has played regularly in the Premier League and secured a big money move to another Premier League team, who have an excellent reputation for scouting and coaching, and seem to rate Gilmour highly (relative to how they treat other prospects they buy). 

A reasonable conclusion from numbers. Even he is posting sensibly about Gilmour now, others should take note. Redemption comes to everyone who looks at the facts and not their panicky bias.

Well, it's good you quickly rowed back from "playing is always better than not playing". What a crazy statement that was!

If you think he would be better playing every week in the Championship that's a somewhat reasonable view. But it's not one that Gilmour holds (clearly), nor did Caicedo or MacAllister. Or countless other players. Virtually everyone on a Premier League bench could play more regularly at a lower level. They would rather be exposed to the best coaches, best facilities, and play occasionally against the best players - compared to every week in the vortex of the Championship. You seem a very play it safe guy, don't fight for your place and develop in the Premier League - just go to the team that promises to play you every week no matter what. If Gilmour had such a defeatist mindset he wouldn't have made it as far as he has.

Yeah, and De Zerbi has publicly praised him in the media and brings him on Premier League games.

If he really didn't rate him, as some mentalists think, he could easily punt him to the reserves.

If a loan move does happen this window, I think very unlikely, it will be because Gilmour is pushing for it - not Brighton. It makes no sense for Brighton to loan out their 13th or 14th best player. Although you've got to admire Gilmours ballsy spirit in his career moves, pushing for a loan move from Brighton now would be a big mistake IMO - he should stay where he is and develop. It worked for the two guys in front of him now.

 

You’re not convincing anyone mate.

Take the L and move on with your life.

[Satoshi]

9 hours ago, BingMcCrosby said:

Ok but you denied saying he was doing great. So everyone is in agreement that he's not doing great currently.

What do you think is going wrong for him? Lack of game time maybe?

Nothing is going wrong, he made a conscious decision to chose long term development over guaranteed playing time at a lower level.

It's the right call for me - good for him. I'm sure the player and club that signed him aren't concerned at all by his start by his club, quite the contrary, he's playing more frequently that MacAllister and Caicedo - one went on to win the world cup and the other is a highly rated prospect.

If they were Scottish on this board they would have been doing terribly when they first moved to Brighton, because many posters here seem to not at all understand how modern football works.

9 hours ago, dundeefc1783 said:

Lack of game time surely isn't an issue I mean he has made 5 premier league appearances this season already. 

It ties in with the manager saying he is their 12th or 13th best player.

The additional context would be he only joined Brighton a few days before gameweek 6 and had no preseason with the club (and limited preseason at Chelsea because he insisted he wanted to move on).

So he's only had 10 possible league games he could play in, and he has appeared in half of them. You may think he should get more minutes in these matches but that's hardly "doing terribly"? The manager doesn't have to play him at all. He knew he wasn't going to instantly displace MacAllister or Caicedo. So it's going fine, and I have no doubt he will start a few games before end of season.

Everyone agrees with me on this, which is why nobody will take the charity bet.

 

8 hours ago, Binos said:

 andy robertsons move to hull did him wonders 

 the young premier league players been moving to Germany to get games and develop 

Playing brings you on, bench warming sends you backwards 

Er, you know Andy Robertson moved from Dundee United to Hull? He hasn't made a single move downwards in his career....

And yeah some have gone to Germany, I'm sure that was an option for Gilmour (far, far worse players made the move) but he chose to stay because he had interest from Brighton - a team renowned for recruitment and coaching.

And warming the bench seemed to work great for MacAllister and Caicedo, so not surprised Gilmour is happy to fight for his place.

You would have picked the easy, safe option of guaranteed playing time with someone like Blackpool. Gilmour backs himself to be a bit better - thank god for that.

7 hours ago, aberdeen1970 said:

I think your argument falls down when you start counting injury time time wasting substitutions as meaningful appearances. 

It aligns with what the manager says - he is their 12th or 13th best player. He doesn't have to play him at all. He has appeared in half of all league games since he joined.

Straight yes or no - is that "doing terribly"?

6 hours ago, Londonwell said:

I don’t think it’s a particularly wild take to suggest Gilmour isn’t doing as well as we thought/hoped at present. That’s not because people think he’s a bad player, quite the opposite, it’s because he looked so good when we broke into first team football. 

I loved/love Gilmour, couldn’t stop raving about him to my pals but through a mix of bad luck and maybe a loss of confidence & form his progress has stagnated. Denying that is denying reality unfortunately. 

Far too early to write him off ofcourse. If he really is the player we hope he is, he’ll come through this sticky patch in his career. The cream rises to the top. If not, he’ll still have a good career, just perhaps not quite at the level that most of us expected. 

Yeah, it certainly appears there are two groups of people attacking Gilmour.

1) idiot transparent trolls

2) people who wildly overrated him and are a bit embarrassed about it

For the latter group, in the last two seasons he has played regularly in the premier league and got a big money move to a team renowned for its coaching and development. Of central midfielders his age he has the third most appearances (and is quite far ahead of others). He has played in half of Brighton's league games since signing and is factually (fact not opinion) getting games faster than MacAllister (world cup winner) or Caicedo (highly rated prospect did)

If you think this is "doing terribly" you have moved to group 1. He's doing fine. It's better to refer to facts and comparison, rather than some idealised view in your head that never existed in the first place.

 

6 hours ago, Theroadlesstravelled said:

 

You’re not convincing anyone mate.

Take the L and move on with your life.

I am posting stats and facts and you are posting this.

I think that says it all.

[Molotov]

Zzzzzzzzzatoshi

[Londonwell]

25 minutes ago, Satoshi said:

Nothing is going wrong, he made a conscious decision to chose long term development over guaranteed playing time at a lower level.

It's the right call for me - good for him. I'm sure the player and club that signed him aren't concerned at all by his start by his club, quite the contrary, he's playing more frequently that MacAllister and Caicedo - one went on to win the world cup and the other is a highly rated prospect.

If they were Scottish on this board they would have been doing terribly when they first moved to Brighton, because many posters here seem to not at all understand how modern football works.

It ties in with the manager saying he is their 12th or 13th best player.

The additional context would be he only joined Brighton a few days before gameweek 6 and had no preseason with the club (and limited preseason at Chelsea because he insisted he wanted to move on).

So he's only had 10 possible league games he could play in, and he has appeared in half of them. You may think he should get more minutes in these matches but that's hardly "doing terribly"? The manager doesn't have to play him at all. He knew he wasn't going to instantly displace MacAllister or Caicedo. So it's going fine, and I have no doubt he will start a few games before end of season.

Everyone agrees with me on this, which is why nobody will take the charity bet.

 

Er, you know Andy Robertson moved from Dundee United to Hull? He hasn't made a single move downwards in his career....

And yeah some have gone to Germany, I'm sure that was an option for Gilmour (far, far worse players made the move) but he chose to stay because he had interest from Brighton - a team renowned for recruitment and coaching.

And warming the bench seemed to work great for MacAllister and Caicedo, so not surprised Gilmour is happy to fight for his place.

You would have picked the easy, safe option of guaranteed playing time with someone like Blackpool. Gilmour backs himself to be a bit better - thank god for that.

It aligns with what the manager says - he is their 12th or 13th best player. He doesn't have to play him at all. He has appeared in half of all league games since he joined.

Straight yes or no - is that "doing terribly"?

Yeah, it certainly appears there are two groups of people attacking Gilmour.

1) idiot transparent trolls

2) people who wildly overrated him and are a bit embarrassed about it

For the latter group, in the last two seasons he has played regularly in the premier league and got a big money move to a team renowned for its coaching and development. Of central midfielders his age he has the third most appearances (and is quite far ahead of others). He has played in half of Brighton's league games since signing and is factually (fact not opinion) getting games faster than MacAllister (world cup winner) or Caicedo (highly rated prospect did)

If you think this is "doing terribly" you have moved to group 1. He's doing fine. It's better to refer to facts and comparison, rather than some idealised view in your head that never existed in the first place.

 

I am posting stats and facts and you are posting this.

I think that says it all.

Despite this compelling “stats and facts” argument have you ever thought you may have a slight obsession with this? Not for me to say but it could possibly, maybe, be clouding your judgement and making you come across like a total w**k? Maybe. 

[BFTD]

At this point, I'm thinking that Gilmour himself could log on and admit he's had a shiter of a year, only to be met by a point-by-point statement of very specific facts and statistics that prove he's a loser who doesn't know anything about football.

[Satoshi]

53 minutes ago, Londonwell said:

Despite this compelling “stats and facts” argument have you ever thought you may have a slight obsession with this? Not for me to say but it could possibly, maybe, be clouding your judgement and making you come across like a total w**k? Maybe. 

Not really, if people post incorrect information I'm happy to correct them.

Otherwise this forum would be people insisting he is doing terribly when actually, he isn't. It's bringing balance to the chaos.

If people want to discuss the facts and statistics let's do it, if they want to insult me - that's fine too, I can't say it bothers me in the slightest.

19 minutes ago, BFTD said:

At this point, I'm thinking that Gilmour himself could log on and admit he's had a shiter of a year, only to be met by a point-by-point statement of very specific facts and statistics that prove he's a loser who doesn't know anything about football.

He won't think that though, he pushed for a move and got it - along with a long lucrative contract at a premier league club.

He would find it bizarre fans of his national team think he should drop down to the championship or Rangers, when he has played above that level his entire professional career.

Facts > biased perceptions.

The world would be a better place if we have more of the former and less of the latter.

[2426255]

Billy Gilmour has only been at Brighton since September-1st (4 months). If for example he plays against Arsenal and performs well then the picture will change.

[dundeefc1783]

So according to the football oracle Billy Gilmour has been available for roughly 10 Brighton Premier League Games and has appeared in 50% of them which as a stand alone stat looks decent on the face of things. However if you break that down of the 900 minutes over those two games BG has participated in less than 2 percent of those minutes.

If we look at Brighton league stats as a whole he ranks number 20 in terms of minutes. He is 371 minutes behind the player who is in the top 13. 

Alexis Macalister was apparently loaned out due to work permit issues. He made his Brighton debut after returning from loan in March 2020 having turned 21 in the previous December. He was avaliable for the last ten games of that season and went onto make 9 appearances totalling 351 minutes

Moses Caicedo signed for Brighton at 19 in Feb 2021 and he didn't play that season and was loaned out at the start of the next season. He was recalled in Jan 2021 having just turned 20. He was then on the bench for a number of games and then made 8 appearances towards the end of the season totalling and started the first two of the 22/23 season. Totalling  844 minutes in first ten games.

Billy Gilmour will have to significantly increase the minutes he plays in the next few games to get anywhere near the totals that Macallister/Caicedo accumulated in their first 10 league games at Brighton.

I am a big Billy Gilmour fan and I get he joined late and didn't have much of a pre season but I don't think there is any doubt he would have been looking to be far more involved than he has been so far. Hopefully for his and the national teams sake it improves between now and end of season.  

 

 

[Gordon EF]

Both Caicedo and MacAllister are unavailbale for Brighton's game against Arsenal tomorrow so a good chance Gilmour will get his first league start of the season. Big opportunity for him to put in a performance and stake a claim for more minutes. Or reasure De Zebri he's ready to step into Caicedo's shoes if he goes in the Jan transfer window.

[Bing.McCrosby]

You've done a fine job @Satoshi

Really won round alot off people over with your reasoning and personality.

Time to log off for a year or 2 with complete satisfaction.

[Bing.McCrosby]

Just now, Gordon EF said:

Both Caicedo and MacAllister are unavailbale for Brighton's game against Arsenal tomorrow so a good chance Gilmour will get his first league start of the season. Big opportunity for him to put in a performance and stake a claim for more minutes. Or reasure De Zebri he's ready to step into Caicedo's shoes if he goes in the Jan transfer window.

In a way its a shame its against arsenal, in a way I'd have preferred it to be against a worse team so he would get on the ball more. That way he can show what he can do, rather than chasing the game which he's not good at.

[Molotov]

10 minutes ago, BingMcCrosby said:

In a way its a shame its against arsenal, in a way I'd have preferred it to be against a worse team so he would get on the ball more. That way he can show what he can do, rather than chasing the game which he's not good at.

And therein lies one of the biggest reasons why he is not starting more games. 

Like everyone else I would like to see more of Billy Gilmour but it’s clear that he is not trusted by top managers in the EPL despite being similar height to Kante. 

He was clearly not a success at Norwich. He is not currently being trusted at Brighton. It’s a worry unless he can somehow turn it around and get the team playing to his strengths.

I do hope that he can make a success of his career but I fear that he won’t.

[Gordon EF]

1 hour ago, BingMcCrosby said:

In a way its a shame its against arsenal, in a way I'd have preferred it to be against a worse team so he would get on the ball more. That way he can show what he can do, rather than chasing the game which he's not good at.

I know what you mean. I'm absolutely sure De Zerbi and the coaches at Brighton will take that into account. But I think there's a good chance that the more reactionary element online will jump all over it if Brighton struggle to impose themselves on the game and Gilmour has a quiet one.

[Bing.McCrosby]

1 hour ago, Gordon EF said:

I know what you mean. I'm absolutely sure De Zerbi and the coaches at Brighton will take that into account. But I think there's a good chance that the more reactionary element online will jump all over it if Brighton struggle to impose themselves on the game and Gilmour has a quiet one.

Unfortunately he leaves himself open to that criticism at the moment. Theres only one way to win people round and its proving them wrong. Hes going to have to get himself physically ready to do this, the sooner the better.

2 hours ago, Molotov said:

And therein lies one of the biggest reasons why he is not starting more games. 

Like everyone else I would like to see more of Billy Gilmour but it’s clear that he is not trusted by top managers in the EPL despite being similar height to Kante. 

He was clearly not a success at Norwich. He is not currently being trusted at Brighton. It’s a worry unless he can somehow turn it around and get the team playing to his strengths.

I do hope that he can make a success of his career but I fear that he won’t.

I still think he will have a good career. It depends on how he develops physically I suppose as to how far he can go. Hes proved he can already cut it at a high level if he's got a decent team to play with.

As you say tho, at the moment if hes in the weaker team hes going to be a passenger alot of the time.

Kante is hardly a stocky guy, but he would bounce Billy away currently. So he's maybe not as far away as we think.

 

[Virtual Insanity]

I don't think Brighton are capable of playing shut up shop football, so I wouldn't expect them to try to be overly defensive in their setup against Arsenal. 

If he doesn't start tomorrow that's surely a significant concern for anyone. 

[dundeefc1783]

I don't think it's beyond him to start tomorrow and have a cracking game. He absolutely has it in his locker to do that. 

 

[Satoshi]

22 hours ago, dundeefc1783 said:

So according to the football oracle Billy Gilmour has been available for roughly 10 Brighton Premier League Games and has appeared in 50% of them which as a stand alone stat looks decent on the face of things. However if you break that down of the 900 minutes over those two games BG has participated in less than 2 percent of those minutes.

If we look at Brighton league stats as a whole he ranks number 20 in terms of minutes. He is 371 minutes behind the player who is in the top 13. 

Alexis Macalister was apparently loaned out due to work permit issues. He made his Brighton debut after returning from loan in March 2020 having turned 21 in the previous December. He was avaliable for the last ten games of that season and went onto make 9 appearances totalling 351 minutes

Moses Caicedo signed for Brighton at 19 in Feb 2021 and he didn't play that season and was loaned out at the start of the next season. He was recalled in Jan 2021 having just turned 20. He was then on the bench for a number of games and then made 8 appearances towards the end of the season totalling and started the first two of the 22/23 season. Totalling  844 minutes in first ten games.

Billy Gilmour will have to significantly increase the minutes he plays in the next few games to get anywhere near the totals that Macallister/Caicedo accumulated in their first 10 league games at Brighton.

I am a big Billy Gilmour fan and I get he joined late and didn't have much of a pre season but I don't think there is any doubt he would have been looking to be far more involved than he has been so far. Hopefully for his and the national teams sake it improves between now and end of season.  

 

Nobody has claimed to be a footballing oracle. But thank god somebody else has actually looked at some statistics rather than just posting bland nothingness.

His amounts of minutes is maybe a slight disappointment, the manager clearly trusts to bring him on and keep the ball to close out games. I have little doubt that he will get far more minutes in his next 10 appearances than in his first 10. An additional context to consider is that he is probably competing against better players in MacAllister and Caicedo than they themselves were when they staked a first team place. They pushed ahead of, say, Alzate, who has loaned out this season. Brighton clearly believe MacAllister to be above Alzate, but he has to fight in front of a World Cup winner and a highly rated prospect in Caicedo.

I reckon Gilmour is playing about the amount of games he expected (starting in league cup and appearing in half of leagues games) but less minutes.

He is doing fine though, the person who thought he was doing terribly has thankfully left the thread. What a dreadful call that was.

20 hours ago, BingMcCrosby said:

You've done a fine job @Satoshi

Really won round alot off people over with your reasoning and personality.

Time to log off for a year or 2 with complete satisfaction.

That's not really how forums work, some people are desperate to believe that Gilmour is doing terribly and it wouldn't matter if he was scoring a hattrick each week. You can't convince flat earth people that the earth is round, and anyone blinkered enough to think he's doing terribly is already beyond help.

Hopefully by posting unbiased information, others can form a more balanced perspective. I didn't know he had appeared in 50% of Brightons league games until I checked, people can interpret that information how they want, but they certainly won't think he's doing terribly.

You're contribution is that 'he could be doing better' which is so utterly banal as to barely be worth replying to. Literally every footballer could be doing better. You are saying absolutely nothing.

19 hours ago, Molotov said:

And therein lies one of the biggest reasons why he is not starting more games. 

Like everyone else I would like to see more of Billy Gilmour but it’s clear that he is not trusted by top managers in the EPL despite being similar height to Kante. 

He was clearly not a success at Norwich. He is not currently being trusted at Brighton. It’s a worry unless he can somehow turn it around and get the team playing to his strengths.

I do hope that he can make a success of his career but I fear that he won’t.

Norwich played him regularly and he was the only player in that team to get a move to the EPL. So he seemed to do okay.

His player profile was known to Brighton when they signed him for a big fee, a few months, far more than they paid for MacAllister or Caicedo. 

What would define career success for you? He just got a long term contract at a Premier league club, who are renowned for their scouting and coaching.

If Ben Doak makes 23 PL appearances next season then gets a big money move to Brighton (with Liverpool trying to keep him) that would be doing fine. If he makes 35 PL appearances for Liverpool then he is doing excellent. If he is playing for Whitehall Welfare then he is doing terribly.

Quite how people don't see that is beyond me. Brighton believed enough in Gilmour a few months ago to sign him, and enough to play him twice in their last two games, and you're worried his career won't be a success? Wild.

18 hours ago, Gordon EF said:

I know what you mean. I'm absolutely sure De Zerbi and the coaches at Brighton will take that into account. But I think there's a good chance that the more reactionary element online will jump all over it if Brighton struggle to impose themselves on the game and Gilmour has a quiet one.

They will do that even if he plays well.

15 hours ago, BingMcCrosby said:

Unfortunately he leaves himself open to that criticism at the moment. Theres only one way to win people round and its proving them wrong. Hes going to have to get himself physically ready to do this, the sooner the better.

I still think he will have a good career. It depends on how he develops physically I suppose as to how far he can go. Hes proved he can already cut it at a high level if he's got a decent team to play with.

As you say tho, at the moment if hes in the weaker team hes going to be a passenger alot of the time.

Kante is hardly a stocky guy, but he would bounce Billy away currently. So he's maybe not as far away as we think.

 

The physical stuff again  Plenty of excellent players have been GIlmours height and weight.

If he is meant to develop his physical ability, the coaches will have told him that and he will be doing it.

Kante was playing in the French third division at Gilmours age.

'Bulking up' is the most banal, da observation possible so it's no surprise you have repeatedly came out with it. Maybe he should work on his first touch and passing in training too? And strikers should work on their shooting?

Maybe you could create a blog of banal da observations of players?

[Gordopolis]

I've just right there finished painting my wall - a really dreary beige colour. All welcome to come round and watch it dry. HTH.