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Billy Gilmour


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9 minutes ago, DrewDon said:

They’re not a good team, but plenty of them would get games for Scotland. The likes of Aarons and Pukki would regularly play, for a start. 

We’re discussing Scotland’s starting side though. Aarons is a slight possibility, Pukki doesn’t. That isn’t plenty. 

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I disagree with that - I think there are a good few who would fancy their chances of regular minutes at a minimum and a decent amount of starts, including the two I mentioned previously. 

It is all hypothetical anyway so not worth a prolonged debate, especially as I am not going to change your mind and you are not going to change mine.

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1 minute ago, DrewDon said:

I disagree with that - I think there are a good few who would fancy their chances of regular minutes at a minimum and a decent amount of starts, including the two I mentioned previously. 

It is all hypothetical anyway so not worth a prolonged debate, especially as I am not going to change your mind and you are not going to change mine.

Who are the good few?

Both of your suggestions can certainly be debated. Pukki would have previously, but at this time I think Adams is a better player. 

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4 minutes ago, No_Problemo said:

Who are the good few?

Both of your suggestions can certainly be debated. Pukki would have previously, but at this time I think Adams is a better player. 

I mean, McLean is a squad ever-present and gets a decent amount of appearances, so I think quite a few Norwich players who are better than him could at least expect to be in the same boat. I think the likes of Krul, Aarons, Rashica, Pukki and Cantwell would be in contention at a minimum. As I said, though, it's all hypothetical so seems a bit like a pointless debate. 

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3 minutes ago, cameron2000 said:


Krul, Aarons, Normann, Rashisca

Would give you Aarons, for now. He’s looked fairly bright for them, but I reckon (or at least hope) that Patterson, Ramsey and Ashby will all be better than him. The others, I’d say would be subs at the most for Scotland but probably not even in the current squad. Krul, in his day, but I’d definitely take Gordon over him now. As has been said before, though, none of them are Scottish so it doesn’t really matter. What does matter is that when Gilmour has been surrounded by better players, whether for Scotland or Chelsea, he’s looked very good. Especially considering his age.

Agree with the other posters about numberwang. The guy has openly admitted that he’s just trying to troll so best to just keep him on ignore. 

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I have been trying to think of an example of a player that didn't perform because his team mates weren't as good as him. Something comparable to what Gilmour is facing at Norwich. I have to say I can't think of anyone although I'm sure these players do exist. Players like Matt Le Tissier or Wilf Zaha tended/tend to really stand out in their teams rather than get dragged down by them, maybe someone can help me out.

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44 minutes ago, 2426255 said:

I have been trying to think of an example of a player that didn't perform because his team mates weren't as good as him. Something comparable to what Gilmour is facing at Norwich. I have to say I can't think of anyone although I'm sure these players do exist. Players like Matt Le Tissier or Wilf Zaha tended/tend to really stand out in their teams rather than get dragged down by them, maybe someone can help me out.

Well Zaha and Le Tissier are known for being talented players who can make something happen from nothing. They will look better in a poorer team than they would in a better team. If Gilmour's game is based around collecting the ball, finding space, and making the pass he requires the players around him to find their own space for him to pass it to. Whereas if whatever nobody is playing upfront for mid 90s Southampton is as mobile as Douglas Bader then Le Tissier is forced to spank in a 30 yarder after nutmegging someone. Likewise if Crystal Palace's right back is as good with crosses as Dracula then Zaha has little option to skin the opposition left back and do it on his own.

These players are great for highlights reels but there's a reason they spent a career looking good in shite teams without getting a move to a higher level (or failing at a higher level in Zaha's case) and never getting a look in for England either.

Someone playing something more akin to "Carrilero" or a deep lying midfielder needs those in front of him to do their job for them to do theirs. When Gilmour is playing for Scotland and Chelsea he has that and he clearly doesn't have that at Norwich. If you want an example of where another a midfielder, in a similar role, was unable to perform because of the shite around them then Mascherano at West Ham, Deschamps at Chelsea or Gnabry at West Brom spring to mind for differing reasons. Mascherano being the most striking comparison.

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Being an older player and playing next to him, I feel some responsibility in that - I don’t appreciate him being singled out at all. Maybe the expectation that everybody’s got on him, but he’s a young kid, he’s here, he’s doing everything he can to help us and we need him going forward because his ability is something that is welcomed at this football club.

You know, he’s not doing as well as he can, he’ll be the first to admit that, but nobody is and as a young boy getting singled out like that I would have rather it was someone like myself – a more experienced player who takes the brunt of that a little bit more.

He’s obviously never experienced something like this in his career, he’s young, he’s in his first full season really in football, playing in the Premier League so it’s going to be tough for him. He’s a strong character, he’s a strong lad, he’ll put a bit of a brave face on but no matter who you are that’s not going be nice to hear.

Kenny McLean

https://www.skysports.com/watch/video/sports/football/12506684/mclean-lends-support-to-gilmour

 

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To be very honest with you I have not thought about it yet and I don’t think it’s a subject in between these matches right now. Maybe we need to do it (Discuss the situation) right after Liverpool but we haven’t discussed it yet and I honestly don’t have a clear opinion on it.

Thomas Tuchel on recalling Billy Gilmour

https://youtu.be/wrYFsO1iwTE?t=1129

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10 hours ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

Well Zaha and Le Tissier are known for being talented players who can make something happen from nothing. They will look better in a poorer team than they would in a better team. If Gilmour's game is based around collecting the ball, finding space, and making the pass he requires the players around him to find their own space for him to pass it to. Whereas if whatever nobody is playing upfront for mid 90s Southampton is as mobile as Douglas Bader then Le Tissier is forced to spank in a 30 yarder after nutmegging someone. Likewise if Crystal Palace's right back is as good with crosses as Dracula then Zaha has little option to skin the opposition left back and do it on his own.

These players are great for highlights reels but there's a reason they spent a career looking good in shite teams without getting a move to a higher level (or failing at a higher level in Zaha's case) and never getting a look in for England either.

Someone playing something more akin to "Carrilero" or a deep lying midfielder needs those in front of him to do their job for them to do theirs. When Gilmour is playing for Scotland and Chelsea he has that and he clearly doesn't have that at Norwich. If you want an example of where another a midfielder, in a similar role, was unable to perform because of the shite around them then Mascherano at West Ham, Deschamps at Chelsea or Gnabry at West Brom spring to mind for differing reasons. Mascherano being the most striking comparison.

Some decent points, I agree with most of this. 

But Le Tissier could have left whenever he wanted, he never wanted to leave.

And I think Mascherano at West ham was more unbelievably bad management and being overlooked. Rather than him not performing well

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18 minutes ago, Virtual Insanity said:

Jorginho another reasonable comparison, at 19 he was playing a vital role in helping AC Sambonifacese to a stonking 12th placed finish in Serie C2. 

I'm not an expert on Jorginho or Italian lower league football and this is the result of a google search so I'm happy to be corrected, but is that really a good example of a player who hasn't performed because the players around him are inferior? It may be revisionist rubbish but this article seems to look back on his period there fondly.

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At 19, perhaps, he believed that the great opportunity of football was already gone. Instead, thanks also to the coach Claudio Valigi, he found the right environment to blossom. 31 appearances, 1 goal and salvation hit. Not bad for someone who had to leave in the juniors. He was so well at the Sambonifacese that after the loan he would have liked to return.

https://grandhotelcalciomercato.com/it/jorginho-la-trattativa-della-vita-davanti-a-una-pizza-e-il-mantova

 

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18 minutes ago, Virtual Insanity said:

Jorginho another reasonable comparison, at 19 he was playing a vital role in helping AC Sambonifacese to a stonking 12th placed finish in Serie C2. 

Another one is Luka Modric, who with a similar physical stature might be a good comparison.

He was still playing in the Croatian league until he was 22.

I've a feeling Billy could do ok for AC Sambonifacese, or Dinamo Zagreb.

The norwich loans not went quite as well as we hoped (most of us anyway). But its far from a disaster, plenty time left in the season to turn it around.

Alot of people rate gilmour, its hard to find pundits who don't. 

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8 hours ago, BingMcCrosby said:

Another one is Luka Modric, who with a similar physical stature might be a good comparison.

Luka Modric was named Player of the Year on his first loan spell in Bosnia & Herzegovina with Zriniski Mostar.

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During this period, he established his versatile style of play and became the Bosnian Premier League Player of the Year at only the age of 18. Modrić later said, "Someone who can play in the Bosnian Premier League can play anywhere" referring to its physical nature.

The following year Modric won Hope of the Year (Best young player) after his second loan spell in the Croatian league with Inter Zaprešić.

These comparisons support the argument that midfielders such as Jorginho and Luka Modric can shine in teams with players of a lower standard which doesn't supports the case for Billy Gilmour being too good a player for Norwich. 

21 hours ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

Someone playing something more akin to "Carrilero" or a deep lying midfielder needs those in front of him to do their job for them to do theirs. 

Don't you mean 'Regista'? My understanding is that a Carrilero protect the wide areas of midfield and recycles play - Callum McGregor would be a good example of a Carrilero in the Scotland team for me or perhaps Kenny McLean at Norwich. Billy Gilmour is seen as being unique to those two players because he is the midfield conductor and the Carrilero on either side typically will protect him.

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From their position in front of the defence, the regista is responsible for receiving passes from defenders or the goalkeeper and moving the ball into space. They have to be comfortable taking the ball when under pressure from any direction, so awareness of their surroundings and an ability to use that information to play their way out of trouble is hugely important.

The main aim of the regista is to progress play forwards by making accurate vertical passes to more attacking players over a range of distances (above). The regista needs to be adept at playing both long and short passes, and they need to be able to both break lines with their passing and switch play accurately. They also need to have good decision-making skills. That means knowing when they can take the opportunity to play forwards, and when a sideways or backwards pass will be most beneficial to the team.

The regista has to be constantly on the move, looking for space to receive and scanning their surroundings to build up a picture of what is going on around them.

Regista

https://www.coachesvoice.com/cv/what-is-a-regista-explained-jorginho-andrea-pirlo/

Registas aren't commonplace in English football because they aren't well suited to it. Billy Gilmour needs to adapt his game to suit his environment (The EPL) and no doubt this is why he was sent to Norwich. Andrea Pirlo was lucky to be supported by Seedorf and Gattuso as his two protective Carrilero. Gilmour doesn't have that luxury.

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