Billy Gilmour

[Binos]

21 hours ago, Monkey Tennis said:

That's not exactly true, but we do produce fewer, even in British terms, than we used to.  For a long time, it was disproportionate.

They had a route to top flight football either side of the border, that no longer exists in the same way it did though.

I think seeing as England got to a wc semi and wales a euros semi fairly recently puts that in doubt 

We however have produced virtually no one other than the two left backs and a clutch of defensive midfielders in 25 years

[Monkey Tennis]

2 minutes ago, Binos said:

I think seeing as England got to a wc semi and wales a euros semi fairly recently puts that in doubt 

Eh?

Which bit of what I said does any of that put in doubt?

[Ewanandmoreagain]

10 hours ago, dundeefc1783 said:

Was there potential for the young lad Hackney at Middlesbrough or Campbell at Luton to be in the squad. I can't confess to know lots about them but both are playing regularly in teams challenging for promotion. 

Hackney yes.

Get him ( Scottish ) nationalised !

 

 

Edited March 23, 2023 by Ewanandmoreagain

[Ewanandmoreagain]

1 hour ago, Monkey Tennis said:

I know you're not referring to John McGovern here.  Only 2 for him.

He'd almost fit the bill though, and while a good consistent player, his cap count points to his actual stature.

He was never given a chance. Allegedly because Ally Macleod was manager

John McGovern has said he himself thought he was as good as Butch Wilkins.

[Binos]

17 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Eh?

Which bit of what I said does any of that put in doubt?

You were saying it's a British problem   not producing players

A British problem which hasn't effected England or Wales 

 

[Ewanandmoreagain]

Sorry , forgot multi whats

[Monkey Tennis]

9 minutes ago, Binos said:

You were saying it's a British problem   not producing players

A British problem which hasn't effected England or Wales 

 

I wasn't saying that at all.  You've misunderstood me.

I was saying that Scotland produces fewer now than it once did in British terms.  We used to punch hugely above our weight, in that every Scottish club -including the biggest - was full of Scots, while most English clubs had a fair sprinkling.   Our representation was disproportionate.

[Monkey Tennis]

14 minutes ago, Ewanandmoreagain said:

He was never given a chance. Allegedly because Ally Macleod was manager

It's a good theory, but for the fact that by the time he was winning European Cups, MacLeod wasn't Scotland manager. 

In truth, MacLeod wasn't in charge for a very long time.  McGovern's successful club career was, by contrast, fairly lengthy.

[Binos]

18 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

I wasn't saying that at all.  You've misunderstood me.

I was saying that Scotland produces fewer now than it once did in British terms.  We used to punch hugely above our weight, in that every Scottish club -including the biggest - was full of Scots, while most English clubs had a fair sprinkling.   Our representation was disproportionate.

And now it's disproportionately shite

[Binos]

16 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

It's a good theory, but for the fact that by the time he was winning European Cups, MacLeod wasn't Scotland manager. 

In truth, MacLeod wasn't in charge for a very long time.  McGovern's successful club career was, by contrast, fairly lengthy.

Was he not part of derby's title winning side along with gemmel before forest 

[Monkey Tennis]

Just now, Binos said:

Was he not part of derby's title winning side along with gemmel before forest 

Yes, well before MacLeod was anywhere near being Scotland manager.  MacLeod's stint was brief.

[Captain_Sensible]

On the subject of what level the likes of Souness or Bremner would have played at had they been playing today, it’s maybe worthwhile to look at players today who have been playing for elite level clubs. 
 

This is clubs who can afford the best in the world.

Jordan Henderson has played 480 games for Liverpool

Harry Maguire has played 168 games for Man United

[Molotov]

13 minutes ago, Captain_Sensible said:

On the subject of what level the likes of Souness or Bremner would have played at had they been playing today, it’s maybe worthwhile to look at players today who have been playing for elite level clubs. 
 

This is clubs who can afford the best in the world.

Jordan Henderson has played 480 games for Liverpool

Harry Maguire has played 168 games for Man United

But according to some on here Henderson is a superior player to Souness and Bremner.  

 

[velo army]

13 hours ago, Satoshi said:

Molotov with the classic Scottish football used to be great and is now full of rubbish players who can't make it routine.

At Billy Gilmours age, Alan Hansen was playing for Partick Thistle in the Scottish second tier.

Stop writing off players so young and being incredibly negative about everything to do with Scottish football.

Classic things were better in ma day denialism. Life moves on.

 

Billy Gilmour is 3 months off his 22nd birthday. By that age Hansen had played a full season for the Jags in the Premier Division (when we finished 5th) and just been signed by Liverpool. He had 86 senior games under his belt and then went on to play regularly (sporadically in his first season) for the top side in England and Europe. They are not comparable.

Players need to stop chasing the quick big money contracts and believing the myth that training with "top" coaches and players and playing for the under 23's is the best route to success. Andy Robertson, John McGinn, Stuart Armstrong and Kieran Tierney are proof that developing close to home while getting first team minutes is the way to go. Perhaps a bit of selection bias there, but I can't think of anyone apart from Aaron Hickey who has had few first team appearances (and Hickey made 24) or none and gone on to have any sort of successful career.

 

[Captain_Sensible]

John McGovern is an interesting subject.

He won the English league title in 1972, reached the European Cup Semi in 1973, finished 3rd in the league in 1974. 
 

McGovern didn’t make the 74 WC squad and Willie Ormond took Hearts’ Donald Ford……

McGovern was still only 28 by the time of the 78 WC and captained Notts Forest to the English Lesgue title in 78 (and the European Cup in 79 and 80) yet again failed to make the WC squad.

In his place, Ally McLeod took Bruce Rioch instead who, ironically had replaced McGovern at Derby (and himself won the league with Derby in 75).

However, Rioch was on the wane by then, a couple of years older than McGovern and would soon be papped out on loan to lesser clubs.

This was part of Ally McLeod’s failure - backing ageing players and inferior home based players, eg Rioch, Tom Forsyth, Derek Johnstone, Joe Harper, Willie Johnston, Alan Rough, Stewart Kennedy, etc instead of the likes of McGovern, Hansen, Souness, Andy Gray, Ian Wallace, Jim Blyth, John Robertson, George Burley

Edited March 23, 2023 by Captain_Sensible

[Satoshi]

7 hours ago, Binos said:

I think seeing as England got to a wc semi and wales a euros semi fairly recently puts that in doubt 

We however have produced virtually no one other than the two left backs and a clutch of defensive midfielders in 25 years

 

6 hours ago, Binos said:

You were saying it's a British problem   not producing players

A British problem which hasn't effected England or Wales 

 

 

6 hours ago, Binos said:

And now it's disproportionately shite

Let's be clear - Binos is not a Scotland fan.

He despises the national team, and every post he makes is critical.

Absolutely no chance he is a foreigner taking the piss, this is very much self hatred. It seeps from his every pore, he absolutely doesn't want Scotland to do well and is delighted when the team or any player does badly or doesn't play.

I can only imagine it's a drastically sad life to live.

Or course, back in reality, England have an excellent claim to being footballs greatest underachievers. They have a manager who complains publicly about the chronic lack of domestic players in the top division which gets worse every year.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/64988328

No football nation in their right mind wants to emulate them.

Wales, meanwhile, who Scotland have a 63% win ratio against and have qualified for 7 more world cups, are back to having a crap squad again after a few years in the sun. They are better at us in football, in the same way we are better than them in rugby (very temporarily and totally against long term historical trends).

4 hours ago, velo army said:

Billy Gilmour is 3 months off his 22nd birthday. By that age Hansen had played a full season for the Jags in the Premier Division (when we finished 5th) and just been signed by Liverpool. He had 86 senior games under his belt and then went on to play regularly (sporadically in his first season) for the top side in England and Europe. They are not comparable.

Players need to stop chasing the quick big money contracts and believing the myth that training with "top" coaches and players and playing for the under 23's is the best route to success. Andy Robertson, John McGinn, Stuart Armstrong and Kieran Tierney are proof that developing close to home while getting first team minutes is the way to go. Perhaps a bit of selection bias there, but I can't think of anyone apart from Aaron Hickey who has had few first team appearances (and Hickey made 24) or none and gone on to have any sort of successful career.

 

I checked the year age (not the month) but fine. Hansen's career by Gilmours age was far less distinguished - there's no doubt about that.

Not that it really matters anyway, the whole thing was about not writing Gilmour off at a young age.

Football has completely changed since the 80s. The same fantasists who wish things were like back in the good ol' days would say the same about the 60s when they were in the 80s.

It's complete pish and totally irrelevant to the current national team.

There is a valid discussion in saying that players should have lots of senior games at a lower level before moving to a big club. That argument can go either way, the most successful small nations like Uruguay and Croatia intentionally produce players for top level European football rather than their (relatively poor) domestic leagues. Id actually rather Scotland did that but having a mixture of both works too.

McGinn has had a fantastic few weeks, previously dismissed as just a Smith (then Gerrard) favourite he has unsurprisingly made a huge impact under Emery too, even being singled out on MOTD recently.

That receives zero posts on this forum, Gilmour doesn't make the bench in a cup game (for unknown reasons) and this thread melts down into things were better in ma day denialism.

Football and life moves on, deal with it. Gilmour has plenty of time to make good on his potential. I hope he starts against Cyprus, will be his kind of game.

 

[Bing.McCrosby]

I'd wager its an eminently sadder life thinking every person that disagrees with you about trivial matters such as football must hate themself.

Edited March 24, 2023 by BingMcCrosby

[RandomGuy.]

Scottish footballers were better, but they also had an easier route to top club, in the past. Thats how ive always seen it.

[Monkey Tennis]

31 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

Scottish footballers were better, but they also had an easier route to top club, in the past. Thats how ive always seen it.

It's pretty much that simple.

Both elements are true.

[Molotov]

 

3 hours ago, Satoshi said:

Gilmour has plenty of time to make good on his potential. I hope he starts against Cyprus, will be his kind of game.

 

Agreed. And follows it up with a huge part in a win over Spain on Tuesday.

No one denies BG has talent.

When he was signed by an elite club in England around 15/16 we all had great hopes that he would thrive in a better environment training with far superior players than at Murray Park.

His full league debut for Chelsea was three years ago against Everton. 

BG has gone from playing for Chelsea in the CL and being part of the winning squad in the CL final in May 2021.
He was MOTM for Scotland against one of the eventual finalists at Wembley at EURO2020 in June 2021.

At that stage of his career he had managers and pundits drooling over his impact in big games. 

The concern I raise is the current lack of current competitive match time at Brighton. That’s not me being critical of BG. 

Let’s hope that these two international games kickstart his career and the performances he puts in for Scotland forces his club manager to use him far more.