Billy Gilmour

[Jambomo]

I mean really, who cares how he’s done compared to Loftus-Cheek? 

The thing is the media (and fans of a club) will only look at success of a loan or permanent player through a narrow lens, how they have done for that club.

That might be fair if you only consider the clubs point of view but if you consider Gilmour’s (and Chelsea) he has played a good number of games this season and as it’s his first proper season, that’s good.

He definitely has improved defensively, despite what is said, he looks better at holding defensive space and forcing players down the sides rather than through midfield, 

There is a really interesting interview online with David Moyes, where he talks about his “failures” at Man U, Sociedad, Sunderland etc and how they improved him as a manager and gave him experience. So whilst on one level they are considered failures, for him they were good experiences and he learnt a lot from them.

We need to stop considering things in such black and white terms. RLC and Gilmour will both still have gotten a lot for these loans spells whether the media/fans view them as successful or not. Chelsea won’t look at this loan and make decision on Gilmours worth, they will bring him back, look at him in their own team and decide if he is needed. 

[Bairnardo]

I mean really, who cares how he’s done compared to Loftus-Cheek? 
The thing is the media (and fans of a club) will only look at success of a loan or permanent player through a narrow lens, how they have done for that club.
That might be fair if you only consider the clubs point of view but if you consider Gilmour’s (and Chelsea) he has played a good number of games this season and as it’s his first proper season, that’s good.
He definitely has improved defensively, despite what is said, he looks better at holding defensive space and forcing players down the sides rather than through midfield, 
There is a really interesting interview online with David Moyes, where he talks about his “failures” at Man U, Sociedad, Sunderland etc and how they improved him as a manager and gave him experience. So whilst on one level they are considered failures, for him they were good experiences and he learnt a lot from them.
We need to stop considering things in such black and white terms. RLC and Gilmour will both still have gotten a lot for these loans spells whether the media/fans view them as successful or not. Chelsea won’t look at this loan and make decision on Gilmours worth, they will bring him back, look at him in their own team and decide if he is needed. 

Correct, and if Gilmour went into Chelseas team now in place of say Jorginho, with their players around him, its VERY conceivable that what you see is an even better version of what we see for Scotland. The idea that watching him get overrun in a shite team is reflective of his abilities, when we all see him pulling strings effortlessly at National level is just stupid.

He would get to play his own game in a Chelsea team far more than he does for Norwich and he would stick out as a top performer.

But then you know as well as I do, a thread that should be about discussing a very unique talent in Scottish terms has been butchered by an utterly tedious troll.

[Satoshi]

He's down to one line posts. 

Let's hope they get shorter each time and eventually disappear.

It's not healthy, he seems unhinged.

[velo army]

I just had a look at Thiago's highlights reel from last night that had a'body on here purring. I reckon Gilmour can get to that level. He wasn't going on massive runs, or making great tackles. he was making himself available and then playing beautiful passes. Gilmour can get to that level if he keeps working hard.

[Bing.McCrosby]

3 hours ago, velo army said:

I just had a look at Thiago's highlights reel from last night that had a'body on here purring. I reckon Gilmour can get to that level. He wasn't going on massive runs, or making great tackles. he was making himself available and then playing beautiful passes. Gilmour can get to that level if he keeps working hard.

Also worth pointing out that at Gilmours age Thiago had made less than 15 appearances in la liga. He was playing mostly for Barcelona b in the Spanish 2nd division.

[2426255]

16 hours ago, Jambomo said:

I mean really, who cares how he’s done compared to Loftus-Cheek? 

The thing is the media (and fans of a club) will only look at success of a loan or permanent player through a narrow lens, how they have done for that club.

That might be fair if you only consider the clubs point of view but if you consider Gilmour’s (and Chelsea) he has played a good number of games this season and as it’s his first proper season, that’s good.

He definitely has improved defensively, despite what is said, he looks better at holding defensive space and forcing players down the sides rather than through midfield, 

There is a really interesting interview online with David Moyes, where he talks about his “failures” at Man U, Sociedad, Sunderland etc and how they improved him as a manager and gave him experience. So whilst on one level they are considered failures, for him they were good experiences and he learnt a lot from them.

We need to stop considering things in such black and white terms. RLC and Gilmour will both still have gotten a lot for these loans spells whether the media/fans view them as successful or not. Chelsea won’t look at this loan and make decision on Gilmours worth, they will bring him back, look at him in their own team and decide if he is needed. 

Billy Gilmour is a young player, learning the game, an argument previously made and accepted.

This experience may serve him well in the future, but it remains unfulfilled potential. In terms of performance for Norwich City this season Billy Gilmour hasn't made them a better team.

15 hours ago, Satoshi said:

He's down to one line posts. 

I'm just being efficient.

[Jambomo]

3 hours ago, 2426255 said:

Billy Gilmour is a young player, learning the game, an argument previously made and accepted.

This experience may serve him well in the future, but it remains unfulfilled potential. In terms of performance for Norwich City this season Billy Gilmour hasn't made them a better team.

I'm just being efficient.

It depends on how you look at potential though. 

He’s what, 20 now? Yet he is a regular starter in a Premier League team (even if it is Norwich!) considered one of the top leagues in the world. He is a first team player for Scotland. He has won the Champions League (and despite people casting shade on it saying he didn’t play in the final etc, he played enough that he qualified for a medal, so he did earn it). 

I think if fulfilling his potential was to play as a professional footballer, then he’s pretty much smashed that. 

Moaning about him not yet being at an even higher level is daft, he might never make it there but it’s like I said before, it equally doesn’t mean he’s shit or achieved nothing. He’s already achieved more than half the players in that league in being an international and winning the CL. 

[The Algebraist]

People tend to think of a player's development as a line graph.

It starts around 16 and they get gradually better until somewhere around 31 their performance starts dropping off, eventually falling off a cliff at 35.

The reality is often a lot stranger, there will be ups and downs, some players will never make it (Islam Feruz), some will look like world beaters then drop off (Deli Alli), others will come on a mile in their mid 20s (McGinn is a bit like that), some will get broken and never quite recover (Ramsey anyone?), and others will finally get called up to the national team at 34 and spend a short career collecting various forwards in their back pocket.

My only point is he has bags of talent but we have to wait and see. Here's hoping he really kicks on again club wise next year, if he does the sky is the limit, but that will still be the case in another year's time as well. He is a clear starter for Scotland.

[Virtual Insanity]

To be honest if Billy Gilmour keeps turning up and playing like he currently is every time for Scotland, I couldn't give a flying f**k if he's playing for Barcelona or flipping burgers in McDonalds.

[HuttonDressedAsLahm]

1 hour ago, Virtual Insanity said:

To be honest if Billy Gilmour keeps turning up and playing like he currently is every time for Scotland, I couldn't give a flying f**k if he's playing for Barcelona or flipping burgers in McDonalds.

That is ultimately the point.  Gilmour has been one of our best players in all 12 of his caps.  Not only that, but he improves the players around him - McGregor for one, looks like a man released from chains when he has Gilmour alongside him.

[Gordopolis]

McGregor for one, looks like a man released from chains when he has Gilmour alongside him.

Kinky!
McGregor even has a wee pervy mask too!

[Satoshi]

The posts above on Gilmour, but let's not forget, he's hardly flaming out at Norwich. Dean Smith starts him pretty much every game he's available for, and clearly rates him very highly.

All the predictions of a recall and being sent to Rangers weren't even close to becoming accurate.

Norwich aren't good enough to stay in the EPL but that's hardly Gilmours fault (Ben Gibson seems to ship two goals a game on his own), but he's demonstrated beyond doubt that he can get a regular game at this level.

Good loan spell, I'm sure he has learned a lot and become a better player. Was in doubt at the start when Farke wasn't playing him but Gilmour has clearly forced himself into the team (as I expected him to).

[2426255]

The loan move has been successful in terms of playing time, this is not a claim being contested. My point is that Billy Gilmour hasn't been able to find a way of using that game time to help Norwich City be a better team.

Quote

First of all, I want him to perform - it’s more or less the same question how you make it into our team by pure performance and if you decide to go on loan it’s as simple as that. I don’t mean it harsh; you need to perform, you need to be on the pitch, you need to be the top player no matter where you go, if you want to make it back here and you want to improve your status.

Thomas Tuchel, Oct '21.

https://youtu.be/uoETEvpOsTI?t=567

Edit: Billy Gilmour's wider achievements outside of his loan spell with Norwich City aren't in question either, so points accepted. @Jambomo

Edited April 22, 2022 by 2426255

[velo army]

2 hours ago, 2426255 said:

The loan move has been successful in terms of playing time, this is not a claim being contested. My point is that Billy Gilmour hasn't been able to find a way of using that game time to help Norwich City be a better team.

https://youtu.be/uoETEvpOsTI?t=567

Edit: Billy Gilmour's wider achievements outside of his loan spell with Norwich City aren't in question either, so points accepted. @Jambomo

Thanks for not only posting the video, but taking the time to ensure that it started at the bit where he was asked the Gilmour question. I appreciated that.

To the bit in bold, I know that this is something Tuchel said at the end, but I'm wondering if, at this stage in his development, that's a realistic expectation, especially if the club seem to be utter dross. It sounded more like a challenge, something to aim for, rather than a condition of getting back into the team.

Assuming that it is a requirement, how would you go about judging whether he makes Norwich a "better team"? Dean Smith obviously thinks he makes them better otherwise he wouldn't keep putting him in the team. I honestly can't be arsed doing the leg work to really look at this though, and it would be quite the rabbit hole of stats, numbers and then questions of interpretations of said numbers.

Sounds like you could be doing with something to occupy yourself though.....

[Bing.McCrosby]

On 21/04/2022 at 18:22, Gordopolis said:

 

 

Kinky!
McGregor even has a wee pervy mask too!

Bring out the gimp!

[2426255]

20 hours ago, velo army said:

Assuming that it is a requirement, how would you go about judging whether he makes Norwich a "better team"? 

The way I have evaluated this question and would recommend to you is to watch the Norwich City team play over a period of time and remain objective.

[2426255]

On 22/04/2022 at 02:15, Satoshi said:

Gilmour has clearly forced himself into the team (as I expected him to).

How did Cliff get on today? 

Edited April 23, 2022 by 2426255

[eez-eh]

Not as badly as his teammates got on, in fairness.

[Jambomo]

8 hours ago, 2426255 said:

How did Cliff get on today? 

I know you are at the wind-up but you’ll notice bar Normann none of the loanees, nor Max Aaron’s (who is rumoured to be leaving) started the match. I think if Rupp wasn’t injured then Normann wouldn’t have played either.

I suspect Smith was maybe having a look at the players who’ll be in the Championship with them next season. After that dreadful game I doubt it’ll be many of them!

[2426255]

2 hours ago, Jambomo said:

I know you are at the wind-up but you’ll notice bar Normann none of the loanees, nor Max Aaron’s (who is rumoured to be leaving) started the match. I think if Rupp wasn’t injured then Normann wouldn’t have played either.

I suspect Smith was maybe having a look at the players who’ll be in the Championship with them next season. After that dreadful game I doubt it’ll be many of them!

I'm just winding Satoshi up. why is everyone so precious over this?  @The Moonster @Bairnardo and yeah - that thought crossed my mind too. I thought it was odd as if they'd beaten Newcastle they'd still have had an outside shot, he must have zero faith in this team if he has thrown the towel in with 6 games to go, 8 points behind and on the back of two decent performances.

In terms of Gilmour, he's not going to going to have had a huge amount of game time looking forward to Ukraine if he isn't going to play in the last 5 games. He has only played 107 minutes since the last international break. Not ideal.

Edited April 24, 2022 by 2426255