Lowland Trapdoorwatch 2019-20

[FairWeatherFan]

I personally don't really care about automatic relegation from the SPFL. I'd much rather have a 3 region set up at Tier 5 with their champions in a play-off with Club 42. The HL/LL playoff and winner v. Club 42 are some of the most interesting games at the end of the season. It keeps that, increases the chance of non-SPFL winner by making Club 42 play two rounds.

And the 3 region set up provides more parity at Tier 5 as the HL/LL is only going to get more lopsided.

[Jerry Macguire]

30 minutes ago, ekok said:

Hi Jerry, sorry but I just don't get the argument that a stronger LL will make the SPFL Clubs more likely to vote for abolition of the Team 42 Protection Scam ( patent pending) They see what has happened to East Stirlingshire and now Berwick. Apart from anything else the cash stops at Tier 4, not sure about the parachute  £.

This will only get worse ( from their point of view) as the ex Juniors find their level. Agree totally that the existing LL have every right to expect everyone else to play fair on relegation and promotion . This is so relevant to a thread about LL Trapdoor Watch. As a League it has been an outstanding sucess and despite the naysayers has made the pyramid.  Not even taking the bait from other posters about the HL, a discussion for another day.

Why any LL team  would ever vote to increase their chance of relegation,  when the HL have a stacked deck ( ok took the bait) and Team 42 are so protected is beyond my comprehension.  As it stands more and more LL teams will face the prospect of relegation as stronger teams come up. Absolutely what a pyramid is supposed to achieve, only asking for a level playing field. Until all of this is resolved,  the LL has every right to say we have done our part, no more relegation until promotion sorted.

 

 

 

I think once senior teams realise the LL is the hardest league to get out of attitudes will change and they will be more receptive to automatic promotion/relegation.

It may take 3 or 4 senior club's to go down and ten years or so for that to happen but honestly I can't see any other way.

My understanding is that parachute payments have stopped, but I'm sure someone close to Berwick would be able to confirm that.  As for HL situation I'm in agreement with you that's an argument for another day.

In the meantime I'm really enjoying what's happening in the LL. The teams coming into the league each year are improving the quality of football we're watching and creating IMO a product thats going to be better than the 10 team league's above us, if it isn't already.

[Burnie_man]

43 minutes ago, ekok said:

  the LL has every right to say we have done our part, no more relegation until promotion sorted.

They of course have every right, but it won't really do them any favours and isn't the right thing to do. We need a fluid Pyramid rather than a stand-off that the LL will never win. Set the example, stengthen via promoting stronger teams, and continue to press the SPFL.

Let's face it, how many LL clubs have actually been relegated (as opposed to withdrawing/going bust) since it's inception, three?  so I'm not sure what you mean by the LL "having done their bit"

[Jerry Macguire]

29 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

I personally don't really care about automatic relegation from the SPFL. I'd much rather have a 3 region set up at Tier 5 with their champions in a play-off with Club 42. The HL/LL playoff and winner v. Club 42 are some of the most interesting games at the end of the season. It keeps that, increases the chance of non-SPFL winner by making Club 42 play two rounds.

And the 3 region set up provides more parity at Tier 5 as the HL/LL is only going to get more lopsided.

Sounds like a plan most of the ex/current junior sides would want but not sure your idea is going to appeal to all the clubs who were bold enough to make the move when they were offered the chance. My view is  a league should have one champion. That champion should be promoted. It not American Football. I’d much prefer we stopped blurring the line between league and cup competition. Perhaps we should stop talking about pyramids as clearly it’s not the right description and doesn’t fit the way the game in this country is shaping up.

[Jerry Macguire]

16 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

They of course have every right, but it won't really do them any favours and isn't the right thing to do. We need a fluid Pyramid rather than a stand-off that the LL will never win. Set the example, stengthen via promoting stronger teams, and continue to press the SPFL.

Let's face it, how many LL clubs have actually been relegated (as opposed to withdrawing/going bust) since it's inception, three?  so I'm not sure what you mean by the LL "having done their bit"

Considering the number seasons completed with a full compliment of clubs that’s pretty decent. How many teams have been relegated from the league above over the same period? By my reckoning we’re ahead of the curve.

Keep in mind also opportunities existed for those stronger clubs during those years when we didn’t have the full 16 clubs.  They decided for whatever reason not to take them.

[FairWeatherFan]

 

20 minutes ago, Jerry Macguire said:

Sounds like a plan most of the ex/current junior sides would want but not sure your idea is going to appeal to all the clubs who were bold enough to make the move when they were offered the chance. My view is  a league should have one champion. That champion should be promoted. It not American Football. I’d much prefer we stopped blurring the line between league and cup competition. Perhaps we should stop talking about pyramids as clearly it’s not the right description and doesn’t fit the way the game in this country is shaping up.

72 - 17

135 - 17  If the LL & EoS had gotten their way this year.

Nowt to do with being junior. Just staring at the numbers and thinking that ain't right will lead to it. 

Stuff like the SFA changing membership rights if you're tier 6 or below doesn't exactly help either.

[Burnie_man]

7 minutes ago, Jerry Macguire said:

Considering the number seasons completed with a full compliment of clubs that’s pretty decent. How many teams have been relegated from the league above over the same period? By my reckoning we’re ahead of the curve.

Keep in mind also opportunities existed for those stronger clubs during those years when we didn’t have the full 16 clubs.  They decided for whatever reason not to take them.

IMO doing your bit (for the Pyramid presumably?) is recognising that one of the two feeder leagues (EoS Premier) is a strong 16 team league with many Licenced clubs, the time is right to increase the promotion opportunities.  If it was still a single division of a dozen clubs of which only 3 or 4 were Licenced, then of course one spot would be sufficient. 

There's now 40 EoS clubs plus 16 SoS, 56 clubs in feeder leagues as opposed to what, 25 or so two seasons ago?  That potentially could increase to 130 next season. I think any reasonable person would say 1 relegation spot is already not enough, and next season 3 may be reasonable.  The SPFL situation has no bearing on this.

[FairWeatherFan]

11 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

IMO doing your bit (for the Pyramid presumably?) is recognising that one of the two feeder leagues (EoS Premier) is a strong 16 team league with many Licenced clubs, the time is right to increase the promotion opportunities.  If it was still a single division of a dozen clubs of which only 3 or 4 were Licenced, then of course one spot would be sufficient. 

There's now 40 EoS clubs plus 16 SoS, 56 clubs in feeder leagues as opposed to what, 25 or so two seasons ago?  That potentially could increase to 130 next season. I think any reasonable person would say 1 relegation spot is already not enough, and next season 3 may be reasonable.  The SPFL situation has no bearing on this.

They discussed increasing relegation at their 2018 agm. At the time they voted against it. Keep in mind the licensing moratorium and the PWG had just been brought back with the new Chief Exec still to chair his first meeting.

Seems perfectly fair not to do anything then. It's since been tied in knots by not getting a decision through the PWG.

I still think the raising of a LL2 working group was more about expediting flow between Tier 5 & 6 than the self preservation idea some others think.

Basically I think the LL, a bit like the EoS, has shown they aren't just in it for themselves. So far.

Edited September 27, 2019 by FairWeatherFan

[RampantFM]

5 hours ago, Marten said:

One spot is simply not reasonable for the amount of clubs that are wanting to get up to the LL, which will only increase. If the LL goes to 3 spots, it will increase in strength soon, which will strengthen the argument for automatic relegation from the SPFL as the LL will be a very decent league to fall in and it won't be too bad of a step back.

Sometimes wonder if people read what they're writing.

3 relegation spots when SPFL don't even offer an automatic relegation for the bottom team???

Can't be that much of a step back since East Stirlingshire haven't exactly found it easy getting back to league football and Berwick Rangers aren't running away with the league so far this season. 

Lowland league is a very decent league already. Just look at the the calibre of players some teams have managed to attract and how competitive it is.

[selfassemblyshire]

I took in several League 2 games last season and even then there wasnt much between the teams.

If you took top half of the Lowland and merged it with League 2 I think you'd find the SPFL teams would struggle!

[parsforlife]

The big flaw in any argument about increasing the number of relegation spots from the LL is you are relying on the member clubs putting self interest to one side and voting it through. Never going to happen unless the clubs are incentivised in my opinion.
Why would Vale of Leithen, Gretna, Edinburgh Uni, Berwick Rangers, Dalbeattie Star and Gala vote in favour of 3 relegation spots knowing they could get dragged into a battle for survival? (only using these clubs as an example because they are currently in the bottom 6)
As for the SPFL  voting for automatic relegation from L2. It will take a few more teams to drop out and stay out of the SPFL before teams wake up and smell the coffee.

whilst there’s teams that you’ve listed there’s also probably a few dead certs like Kelty and Bonnyrigg.

Out of interest does anyone know the voting structures in the LL? Would a simple majority do it?

[LongTimeLurker]

The league constitution is online so it should be easy to check. Issues like these really should be in the hands of the SFA board, so selfish self-interest agendas are not allowed to interfere with how the pyramid operates.

[parsforlife]

The league constitution is online so it should be easy to check. Issues like these really should be in the hands of the SFA board, so selfish self-interest agendas are not allowed to interfere with how the pyramid operates.

The sfa board are never going to push anything through without league consent. They have a role to play to oversee the pyramid, but promotion/relegation between different league organisations needs to be done by agreement between them.

[Marten]

8 hours ago, RampantFM said:

Sometimes wonder if people read what they're writing.

3 relegation spots when SPFL don't even offer an automatic relegation for the bottom team???

Can't be that much of a step back since East Stirlingshire haven't exactly found it easy getting back to league football and Berwick Rangers aren't running away with the league so far this season. 

Lowland league is a very decent league already. Just look at the the calibre of players some teams have managed to attract and how competitive it is.

The EOS Premier is just below the LL and has 3 relegation spots. Regardless of how you look at it, 1 relegation spot from a 16 team league while a strong league is directly below it is indefensible. Epecially when a west league is established, 3 spots is no more than reasonable.

The EOSL have done many concessions to get to a decent pyramid, LL have all been about self preservation, let them make concessions too.

[RampantFM]

12 minutes ago, Marten said:

The EOS Premier is just below the LL and has 3 relegation spots. Regardless of how you look at it, 1 relegation spot from a 16 team league while a strong league is directly below it is indefensible. Epecially when a west league is established, 3 spots is no more than reasonable.

The EOSL have done many concessions to get to a decent pyramid, LL have all been about self preservation, let them make concessions too.

The EOS has 40 teams in it (Premier, First Division Conference A and B) and this will likely increase in number over the next few seasons. 

EOS also don't have to worry about licensing.

An automatic promotion in terms of region will not work neither. There is a growing divide in quality between the EOS and SOS. We've only had one play-off between an EOS and SOS side so far due to the likes of Stranraer Reserves winning the SOS. 

Yes, there is alot of quality teams in the EOS that would do well in the Lowland, no denying that, but look at the issues that Bonnyrigg had last season with promotion, now imagine that x3 over the next few seasons after the licensed clubs got promotion. Would quickly turn into a farce. 

Edited September 28, 2019 by RampantFM

[newcastle broon]

9 minutes ago, Marten said:

The EOS Premier is just below the LL and has 3 relegation spots. Regardless of how you look at it, 1 relegation spot from a 16 team league while a strong league is directly below it is indefensible. Epecially when a west league is established, 3 spots is no more than reasonable.

The EOSL have done many concessions to get to a decent pyramid, LL have all been about self preservation, let them make concessions too.

Isnt that where the problem lies  though EOSFL LL and SPFL all have separate administrators and then theres the juniors ? 

Can they no all be as one  ? 

[FairWeatherFan]

14 minutes ago, Marten said:

The EOS Premier is just below the LL and has 3 relegation spots. Regardless of how you look at it, 1 relegation spot from a 16 team league while a strong league is directly below it is indefensible. Epecially when a west league is established, 3 spots is no more than reasonable.

The EOSL have done many concessions to get to a decent pyramid, LL have all been about self preservation, let them make concessions too.

How exactly have they all been about self preservation? Threave opted out of the Lowland League rather than hang around taking up a spot. LTHV didn't officially get their license until after the March 31st deadline yet were told they would accepted if they won promotion in 2018. The LL didn't have to hang around and let Bonnyrigg get their license finally approved.

The closest thing to an example of self preservation was the attempt to clarify their relegation rules last year. When a league position of 14th had ZERO expectation of being relegated at the start of the season suddenly came under threat. And 15th would of had little chance of relegation was now seemingly guaranteed it all because a club went bust.

As for 3 relegation spots. That's the potential for 4 due to having to balance any SPFL playoff result. Relegating a quarter of your clubs seems overkill.

[Marten]

14 minutes ago, newcastle broon said:

Isnt that where the problem lies  though EOSFL LL and SPFL all have separate administrators and then theres the juniors ? 

Can they no all be as one  ? 

I'd be happy to see the EOSFL and LL in 1 organisation, they work closely together already anyway. As long as there is a way to bring the West on board if/when they decide to join.

I'm not against the idea of an LL2 (East & West) as long as there is decent enough promotion/relegation between LL1, LL2 & the leagues below.

[Burnie_man]

17 minutes ago, RampantFM said:

Yes, there is alot of quality teams in the EOS that would do well in the Lowland, no denying that, but look at the issues that Bonnyrigg had last season with promotion, now imagine that x3 over the next few seasons after the licensed clubs got promotion. Would quickly turn into a farce. 

Bonnyrigg had problems due to the SFA's last minute floodlights criteria, that wont happen every season and is irrelevant.  Four of the EoS top 6 are already Licenced, the other two will most likely be by seasons end.

[Burnie_man]

7 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

As for 3 relegation spots. That's the potential for 4 due to having to balance any SPFL playoff result. Relegating a quarter of your clubs seems overkill.

That's exactly what the EoS Premier have, and rightly so.