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Lowland Trapdoorwatch 2019-20

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It's not the lower leagues in Scotland that need to address their Promotion/Relegation issues its Scottish League Two that needs sorted! 1 team down but thats only if they lose a 2 legged playoff against the winner of the Highland/Lowland league champions! The bottom team in the League Two should be relegated with the winner of the other tie going straight up.  There is far too much protection for SLFL teams imo.

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10 minutes ago, gretnascotty said:

It's not the lower leagues in Scotland that need to address their Promotion/Relegation issues its Scottish League Two that needs sorted! 1 team down but thats only if they lose a 2 legged playoff against the winner of the Highland/Lowland league champions! The bottom team in the League Two should be relegated with the winner of the other tie going straight up.  There is far too much protection for SLFL teams imo.

Yer no allowed to say that though Scotty mate,that's no a solution 😉

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53 minutes ago, Ginaro said:

You need to come up with a better argument than just saying "surely". Our pyramid is still developing but there is no requirement for each area to end at the same level - maybe in the north it'll only ever go down to 6 or 7 whilst in the south it could go to 9 or 10.

The Scottish Cup format will need to change anyway if we get a couple more teams qualifying, so everyone outside of the SPFL or top few places in tier 5 might just be put into the first round.

I think Gretnascotty has just backed up my argument as did Jerrymaguire on a thread months and months ago. 

Why does it all have to change at the LL though,when it's very limited to get up from the LL why should it open up ? 

Do you think the SPFL2 would even talk to the LL aboot opening up?

That's why it needs looked at from top to bottom.

This is all going round in circles through various threads. 

 

Edited by newcastle broon

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So let me get this right, because the SPFL only relegate one club (maybe) via a play-off, then the LL should also operate a protectionist policy between it, and the EoS (and potential WoS) unless the SPFL make the first move?

Maybe it would be better to set the example, to take the lead, and once the West come on board in whatever form, the LL go to at least 2 automatic relegation spots and open up the flow. Maybe then, the SPFL will listen a little more to complaints about not enough promotion spots.  It would also help move the weaker clubs out of the LL and the stronger East/West clubs into it, making it a better place to be for relegated League 2 clubs.

Edited by Burnie_man

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11 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

So let me get this right, because the SPFL only relegate one club (maybe) via a play-off, then the LL should also operate a protectionist policy between it, and the EoS (and potential WoS) unless the SPFL make the first move?

Maybe it would be better to set the example, to take the lead, and once the West come on board in whatever form, the LL go to at least 2 automatic relegation spots and open up the flow. Maybe then, the SPFL will listen a little more to complaints about not enough promotion spots.  It would also help move the weaker clubs out of the LL and the stronger East/West clubs into it, making it a better place to be for relegated League 2 clubs.

You took yer time 😂

Big question mark over the west getting involved though,hopefully sooner than later ? 

Look at the top 2 of spfl2 just now, where have they clubs came from,I'd be inclined to say that the SPFL are definately the protectionists  ? 

Not sure if the LL would take any lead here,maybes they should but can't see it happening anytime soon especially if the west non league sides do decide to get involved. 

The bigger west side non league clubs would most probably decimate the LL so I'd go along the lines that rightly or wrongly the LL teams certainly wont be looking anytime in the near future to enhance the relegation places at the bottom  ? 

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Just now, newcastle broon said:

You took yer time 😂

Big question mark over the west getting involved though,hopefully sooner than later ? 

Look at the top 2 of spfl2 just now, where have they clubs came from,I'd be inclined to say that the SPFL are definately the protectionists  ? 

Not sure if the LL would take any lead here,maybes they should but can't see it happening anytime soon especially if the west non league sides do decide to get involved. 

The bigger west side non league clubs would most probably decimate the LL so I'd go along the lines that rightly or wrongly the LL teams certainly wont be looking anytime in the near future to enhance the relegation places at the bottom  ? 

Both the SPFL and LL are operating with protectionist policies at the moment, the LL should really be 2 down minimum already. The EoS Premier (rightly) will relegate 3 clubs minimum, potentially 4, maybe they should cut it to one since they only have a play off spot for promotion at the other end...................

I think the west will be on board in some form next season, but it will take time for Licenced clubs to feed through from there.  Either way, at that point the LL needs to start opening up otherwise it loses any credibility if it complains about lack of promotion opportunities to the SPFL (which I agree, should be one automatic and one play-off minimum).

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4 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Both the SPFL and LL are operating with protectionist policies at the moment, the LL should really be 2 down minimum already.

Keep in mind the LL only reached 16 teams in 2016-17. Then spring-summer 2018 everything's blown up underneath them. We still don't know what Tier 6 will look like in 2020 and they're tied up in that process like everyone else.

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Hi Burnie, your arguments are unimpeachable.  Only problem is the SPFL and SFA have kicked this can down the road for over 5 years. There is absolutely no reason for  Tier  5 and below to make any further improvements in the pyramid until the frankly embarrassing Team 42 Protection Scam is busted. 

Every single development of the pyramid has happened at Tier 5 and below in the Lowland catchment area. Don't even get me started about the Highland League. Yes in an ideal world the West Juniors would come to the party. If you think that and the obvious and welcome ambition of clubs like Kelty, Bonnyrigg and the top of the EOS now almost certain to move up to Lowland status is any sort of encouragement to League 2 teams to break the mould, don't see it, quite the opposite. 

So that's the problem, what's the solution? The SFA as the governing body to grasp this nettle, take the broad view and knock our football into some sort of sensible shape. I don't even have a word or a graphic for a pyramid with a choke point

 

 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, ekok said:

Hi Burnie, your arguments are unimpeachable.  Only problem is the SPFL and SFA have kicked this can down the road for over 5 years. There is absolutely no reason for  Tier  5 and below to make any further improvements in the pyramid until the frankly embarrassing Team 42 Protection Scam is busted. 

Every single development of the pyramid has happened at Tier 5 and below in the Lowland catchment area. Don't even get me started about the Highland League. Yes in an ideal world the West Juniors would come to the party. If you think that and the obvious and welcome ambition of clubs like Kelty, Bonnyrigg and the top of the EOS now almost certain to move up to Lowland status is any sort of encouragement to League 2 teams to break the mould, don't see it, quite the opposite. 

So that's the problem, what's the solution? The SFA as the governing body to grasp this nettle, take the broad view and knock our football into some sort of sensible shape. I don't even have a word or a graphic for a pyramid with a choke point

 

I understand what the SPFL are like and agree that their attitude is very poor, however my point is what happens between SPFL/HL/LL should not impact on what happens between LL/EoS/SoS/WoS?  and all the LL can do is set the example, set the tone, get stronger clubs into the league at a better rate of knots and improve standards and crowds. 

Clubs at tier 6 shouldn't be held back because of the intransigence of the SPFL.

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2 hours ago, newcastle broon said:

Just giving my thoughts,didnt realise that wasnt allowed on a fitba forum. 

Like I said the whole of Scottish football needs looked at from top to bottom and for me that's got to start at hq,theyre the ones who should have solutions,not the LL  ? 

 

If someone put you in charge "at hq", what would you do to fix the imbalances you perceive to exist in the current system?

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Agree 100%  , but it how to achieve a fair and level playing field is the key. At least the LL has automatic relegation.  Yes two up / down with even more in Tier 6 and below is what is needed. Teams that go down have a very hard time of it. No offense but doesn't look likely either Berwick or East Stirlingshire are going back up any time soon. This is only going to get harder, EoS ex Juniors , then maybe Auchinleck,  Pollok etc, why would any club in SPFL League 2 and even League 1 vote for Christmas. 

Sad to say we at lower levels will never gain the moral high ground ( the cynic in me says there isn't any in Scottish Football ) we need action from SFA

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20 minutes ago, Marshmallo said:

If someone put you in charge "at hq", what would you do to fix the imbalances you perceive to exist in the current system?

He’d phone you mallow. 

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36 minutes ago, Marshmallo said:

If someone put you in charge "at hq", what would you do to fix the imbalances you perceive to exist in the current system?

I'm no in charge I'd certainly be looking at a meeting wi the league above though,why are you so concerned aboot tier 5 especially the LL  ? 

Ekok ,above ,another singing from the same hymn sheet. It's no just me ye ken. 

This is the LL trapdoor watch thread,no another pyramid thread !

14 minutes ago, Rab B Nesbit said:

He’d phone you mallow. 

😂😂😂

 

Edited by newcastle broon

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2 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

So let me get this right, because the SPFL only relegate one club (maybe) via a play-off, then the LL should also operate a protectionist policy between it, and the EoS (and potential WoS) unless the SPFL make the first move?

Maybe it would be better to set the example, to take the lead, and once the West come on board in whatever form, the LL go to at least 2 automatic relegation spots and open up the flow. Maybe then, the SPFL will listen a little more to complaints about not enough promotion spots.  It would also help move the weaker clubs out of the LL and the stronger East/West clubs into it, making it a better place to be for relegated League 2 clubs.

Excepting those who end up in the Highland League, of course.

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2 minutes ago, Jacksgranda said:

Excepting those who end up in the Highland League, of course.

The Highland League is as strong as it can be probably, with the expection of removing FW and replacing with Banks O'Dee.  Different dynamic up there where Junior clubs have always been the poor relation to the HL.

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1 minute ago, Burnie_man said:

The Highland League is as strong as it can be probably, with the expection of removing FW and replacing with Banks O'Dee.  Different dynamic up there where Junior clubs have always been the poor relation to the HL.

I would have thought a team going down to the Highland League might have a chance of bouncing back quicker than one going down to the Lowland. Although that's just an opinion, it would be interesting to see what would happen in pracrice.

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I agree with that particularly for  Elgin City. If they went down and were financially in reasonable shape I think they would regroup and bounce back. A season or two playing local sides and presumably winning more often would not be the end of the world.  Suspect they would get bigger crowds. Tougher for Brechin I would have thought.

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For a team relegated into the Highland League they should be able to contend for a title. I wouldn't expect them to be dominant or win it every year until they get promoted. That's roughly where Elgin were previously. Title wins in the 50s, 60s, 70s and 90s with a couple of runners up in the 80s.

While Angus clubs don't have the history to say they can compete. I'm sure they'll be able to once they re-adjust to life outside the SPFL.

The fear with the Lowland is that you might get swallowed up never to return. The Highland already has the best in the region or certainly not enough to change its landscape completely. With the Lowland League you could pull another 16+ clubs at least and say on paper they could compete at that level or higher.

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I fully agree that there should be a decent pyramid north of the Tay as well. But with Scotland's geography you can't have the same approach for the HL as for the LL, even if there is one day a proper pyramid over here is well.

However, the situation in the HL area is completely different than in the LL area and it's a complete non-argument for relegation from the LL. So is the absence of automatic relegation from the SPFL. I support automatic relegation, but it's not an argument to not have more relegation from the LL. One spot is simply not reasonable for the amount of clubs that are wanting to get up to the LL, which will only increase. If the LL goes to 3 spots, it will increase in strength soon, which will strengthen the argument for automatic relegation from the SPFL as the LL will be a very decent league to fall in and it won't be too bad of a step back.

The cup is another story and I agree that has to be looked at. If all Championship start in round 3 and all LL/HL in round 1, there will be hardly any preliminary rounds needed for now. And byes should be given on ability to licensed clubs.

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1 hour ago, Marten said:

I fully agree that there should be a decent pyramid north of the Tay as well. But with Scotland's geography you can't have the same approach for the HL as for the LL, even if there is one day a proper pyramid over here is well.

However, the situation in the HL area is completely different than in the LL area and it's a complete non-argument for relegation from the LL. So is the absence of automatic relegation from the SPFL. I support automatic relegation, but it's not an argument to not have more relegation from the LL. One spot is simply not reasonable for the amount of clubs that are wanting to get up to the LL, which will only increase. If the LL goes to 3 spots, it will increase in strength soon, which will strengthen the argument for automatic relegation from the SPFL as the LL will be a very decent league to fall in and it won't be too bad of a step back.

The cup is another story and I agree that has to be looked at. If all Championship start in round 3 and all LL/HL in round 1, there will be hardly any preliminary rounds needed for now. And byes should be given on ability to licensed clubs.

The big flaw in any argument about increasing the number of relegation spots from the LL is you are relying on the member clubs putting self interest to one side and voting it through. Never going to happen unless the clubs are incentivised in my opinion.

Why would Vale of Leithen, Gretna, Edinburgh Uni, Berwick Rangers, Dalbeattie Star and Gala vote in favour of 3 relegation spots knowing they could get dragged into a battle for survival? (only using these clubs as an example because they are currently in the bottom 6)

As for the SPFL  voting for automatic relegation from L2. It will take a few more teams to drop out and stay out of the SPFL before teams wake up and smell the coffee.

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