Lowland League football, what is the future?

[Pyramidic]

When we go back a year the Pyramid appeared to be an unstoppable force and the formation of a WOSL seemed only months away.  Then the WOSL concept disappeared as the whole WRJFA would be joining the Pyramid intact. Then the reversal as the "done deal" to join at Tier 6 had been undone or was non-existent in the first place.

A Pyramid in the West now seems a lot futher away. Enthusiasm has clearly diminished.  The WRJFA joining the Pyramid now seems unlikely, clubs setting up their own WOSL seems a non-starter as does the EOSL setting up a league in the west.

There is a logjam and only one organisation could quickly get things moving again and that is the Lowland League by establishing a Tier 6 league covering the west - in other words Lowland League Division 2 West.  This would in my view be an attractive carrot which would enable the Pyramid to grow in the West.

So there initially would be the following structure:
 

Tier 5

Lowland League

Tier 6

1. LL Division 2 West
2. EOSL Premier (which might become LL Division 2 East eventually)
3. SOSL (which might drop to tier 7 in due course)

The Lowland League has a lot of kudos and joining a second division would in my view be an attractive proposition for a number of WRJFA clubs with a clear route for advancement.

What would be the problems and opportunities created by such a move?  What would be the position of the SFA?

NB: The above scenario is put forward on the basis that the SFA will not actively participate in "league-building" in the Pyramid.

Edited June 19, 2019 by Pyramidic

[ian44wood]

1 hour ago, Pyramidic said:

When we go back a year the Pyramid appeared to be an unstoppable force and the formation of a WOSL seemed only months away.  Then the WOSL concept disappeared as the whole WRJFA would be joining the Pyramid intact. Then the reversal as the "done deal" to join at Tier 6 had been undone or was non-existent in the first place.

A Pyramid in the West now seems a lot futher away. Enthusiasm has clearly diminished.  The WRJFA joining the Pyramid now seems unlikely, clubs setting up their own WOSL seems a non-starter as does the EOSL setting up a league in the west.

There is a logjam and only one organisation could quickly get things moving again and that is the Lowland League by establishing a Tier 6 league covering the west - in other words Lowland League Division 2 West.  This would in my view be an attractive carrot which would enable the Pyramid to grow in the West.

So there initially would be the following structure:
 

Tier 5

Lowland League

Tier 6

1. LL Division 2 West
2. EOSL Premier (which might become LL Division 2 East eventually)
3. SOSL (which might drop to tier 7 in due course)

The Lowland League has a lot of kudos and joining a second division would in my view be an attractive proposition for a number of WRJFA clubs with a clear route for advancement.

What would be the problems and opportunities created by such a move?  What would be the position of the SFA?

NB: The above scenario is put forward on the basis that the SFA will not actively participate in "league-building" in the Pyramid.

The eos said they would assist a west league getting set up if they needed help. They never said they would start one up themselves. 

[Spyro]

2 hours ago, Pyramidic said:

There is a logjam and only one organisation could quickly get things moving again and that is the Lowland League by establishing a Tier 6 league covering the west - in other words Lowland League Division 2 West.  This would in my view be an attractive carrot which would enable the Pyramid to grow in the West.

So there initially would be the following structure:
 

 Tier 5

Lowland League

Tier 6

1. LL Division 2 West
2. EOSL Premier (which might become LL Division 2 East eventually)
3. SOSL (which might drop to tier 7 in due course)

 

If you really think west clubs are that stupid that they can’t see that LL2WEST is EXACTLY the same thing as WoSFL, then maybe we just leave them playing juniors on their own because you are creating problems THAT ARE NOT THERE... 

I give up though  

Edited June 19, 2019 by Spyro

[Pyramidic]

20 minutes ago, Spyro said:

If you really think west clubs are that stupid that they can’t see that LL2WEST is EXACTLY the same thing as WoSFL, then maybe we just leave them playing juniors on their own because you are creating problems THAT ARE NOT THERE... 

I give up though  

I understand your point. However I think a key issue is inclusiveness and who is running the show.  WOSFL would be outwith the LL but LL2W clubs will be "part of the show". There would be issues like voting rights to navigate and relegation issues.  However, I am sure that teams like Gretna 2008 and Dalbeattie Star would find relegation to LL2W a much healthier prospect than say relegation to SOSFL or EOSFL.

[Spyro]

4 minutes ago, Pyramidic said:

However, I am sure that teams like Gretna 2008 and Dalbeattie Star would find relegation to LL2W a much healthier prospect than say relegation to SOSFL or EOSFL.

They would have the choice to reassign themselves and be relegated to the new tier 6 league (whatever they choose to call it)...no problems. The SoS should slowly start to be phased out, hopefully when there’s enough teams under the WoSFL banner to have a regional split at tier 8... simple!

[pipedreamer]

5 minutes ago, Pyramidic said:

I understand your point. However I think a key issue is inclusiveness and who is running the show.  WOSFL would be outwith the LL but LL2W clubs will be "part of the show". There would be issues like voting rights to navigate and relegation issues.  However, I am sure that teams like Gretna 2008 and Dalbeattie Star would find relegation to LL2W a much healthier prospect than say relegation to SOSFL or EOSFL.

The shout seems to be where would a club that’s relegated from the wosl go. The reality is there would be no relegation from that league until there was a league formed underneath for the club to be relegated into. So a WOSL which could contain 16 west premiership clubs would stay as that 16 team league, or 14 to leave space in case Cumbernauld, BSC or the likes were relegated from the LL. 

[Spyro]

And as for voting rights and having a say on promotion/relegation... I am sure there will be 30odd EoS teams (AT THE SAME LEVEL) with something to say about that!

[Spyro]

1 minute ago, pipedreamer said:

The shout seems to be where would a club that’s relegated from the wosl go. The reality is there would be no relegation from that league until there was a league formed underneath for the club to be relegated into. So a WOSL which could contain 16 west premiership clubs would stay as that 16 team league, or 14 to leave space in case Cumbernauld, BSC or the likes were relegated from the LL. 

The Highland League can potentially run with 19-20 teams, again, creating a problem that isn’t there 

[newcastle broon]

31 minutes ago, Pyramidic said:

I understand your point. However I think a key issue is inclusiveness and who is running the show.  WOSFL would be outwith the LL but LL2W clubs will be "part of the show". There would be issues like voting rights to navigate and relegation issues.  However, I am sure that teams like Gretna 2008 and Dalbeattie Star would find relegation to LL2W a much healthier prospect than say relegation to SOSFL or EOSFL.

Or then again they might see it as a threat and prefer the easier SOSFL at tier 6 

[pipedreamer]

27 minutes ago, Spyro said:

The Highland League can potentially run with 19-20 teams, again, creating a problem that isn’t there 

Worth remembering that the highland league has a full compliment of teams with floodlights and they play mid-week matches throughout the season in both cups and league to ensure the completion of the league. It’s the HFL and their 18 team league and cups that are pushing for the removal of replays in the Scottish Cup and pushed back the end of season playoffs due to fixture congestion. 

[Spyro]

20 minutes ago, pipedreamer said:

Worth remembering that the highland league has a full compliment of teams with floodlights and they play mid-week matches throughout the season in both cups and league to ensure the completion of the league. It’s the HFL and their 18 team league and cups that are pushing for the removal of replays in the Scottish Cup and pushed back the end of season playoffs due to fixture congestion. 

Have you seen the weather up there in the winter, the 3 months-worth of games called off, the travelling, the fact it’s a bit of a mafia and of amount silly cups the teams up there enter into?

Not really a great example tbh...

There’s no reason why teams at tier 6 to 8 cannot play 38 league games in a season in the west of Scotland, if they are scheduled sensibly. Some amateur teams (edited) manage a similar amount of games...

But again, we are talking of the extreme... it may (and should) never come to that if the people running the league act sensibly 

Edited June 19, 2019 by Spyro

[Spyro]

Get the EoS league to run the new WoS league, they have proven that all these “issues” can easily be dealt with with integrity and sense... they could’ve had ALL the problems listed above with the unpredictable amount of new applicants they have had to deal with and haven’t! Strange that 

Edited June 19, 2019 by Spyro

[FairWeatherFan]

22 minutes ago, Spyro said:

Get the EoS league to run the new WoS league, they have proven that all these “issues” can easily be dealt with with integrity and sense... they could’ve had ALL the problems listed above with the unpredictable amount of new applicants they have had to deal with and haven’t! Strange that 

The EoS had an established board experienced with running a league within sfa rules, existing cups and sponsors. 

A splinter WoS has none of that and what remains of the West juniors would probably be stronger and pull more attention than the upstart league. 

[the jambo-rocker]

You've got to remember that it was only three years ago that Kelty became the first Junior side to switch over to the Seniors. You could argue that how far the LL and EOS leagues have came in that time as been huge. I doubt many could have foreseen the changes when Kelty came over.

Let the leagues continue to develop its foundations, as they will continue to increase in terms of quality and stature as teams find their levels and the remaining areas will follow suit into joining in, which you'd be hard-pressed to bet against happening over the next three seasons.

 

[Paco]

Might be worth the Lowland/EoS clubs trying to set up a West of Scotland league to, if nothing else, go to the SPFL and demand prioritisation of the promotion place to League 2. A fully functioning league system underneath the 16 team Lowland League, with three leagues in the east, one in the south, and at least one in the west, versus a Highland League with 17 teams that refuses to consider change?

Would be a strong position to demand preferential treatment. Say, 2nd in Lowland v Highland champions first, then the winners v the Lowland champions, before going on to play club 42.

[Spyro]

2 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

The EoS had an established board experienced with running a league within sfa rules, existing cups and sponsors. 

A splinter WoS has none of that and what remains of the West juniors would probably be stronger and pull more attention than the upstart league. 

Are you trying to say there isn’t ANYONE in the west of Scotland with the brain power and expertise to follow what the EoS board have already shown to be possible and set the thing up themselves?

Edited June 19, 2019 by Spyro

[FairWeatherFan]

1 hour ago, Spyro said:

Are you trying to say there isn’t ANYONE in the west of Scotland with the brain power and expertise to follow what the EoS board have already shown to be possible and set the thing up themselves?

How much of the list of benefits for EoSFL membership is guaranteed to apply to the West of Scotland League?

• Membership of EOSFL which confirms acceptance of and commitment to the pyramid system thereby satisfying a mandatory requirement of being granted a Club Licence. SJFA - No
• Automatic entry to the Scottish Cup for Champion Club irrespective of licencing status which will generate a minimum income in excess of £3,000 SJFA - YES
• 3 ways of Scottish Cup Entry, EOS & SOS League Champions, Alex Jack Cup Winner, Any Licenced Club SJFA - No
• £3,000 Funding towards ground improvements available to all un-licenced  clubs looking to gain their SFA Licence. SJFA - No
• Up to £10,000 funding as an EOS club available from Scottish Football Partnership towards ground improvements. SJFA - No
• Our ambition is to have all Members licenced as soon as possible and thereby automatically in the Scottish Cup every year. SJFA - No
• Very likely more promotion places will be available to enter the Lowland League from Tier 6. SJFA - No
• SFA Sports First Aid courses at heavily discounted rates (or free of charge). SFA Licence compliant. SJFA - No
• All clubs supplied with a defibrillator and associated training. SFA Licence compliant. SJFA - No
• Bespoke personalised first aid bag. SJFA - No
• Personal Accident and Liability insurance incl. player to player liability paid for by the League. SFA  Licence compliant. SJFA - No (EOS supply all 3 insurances that pass Licence criteria)
• Match balls and training balls supplied each season. SJFA - Yes (Matchballs only)
• Coaching courses at heavily discounted rates (or free of charge) up to C Licence level. SJFA - Unsure
• Prize money for those Clubs finishing in the top four in the league. SJFA - Yes
• A sound organisational structure with fixtures issued on a seasonal basis. SJFA - No
• In combination with the Scottish Lowland League and the South of Scotland League an U20 development league for the development of a player pathway. SJFA - No
• Automatic entry for the U20 team into the Scottish Youth Cup. SJFA - No

LOWLAND LEAGUE (added to above)
• As it stands winner goes into a play off for promotion to SPFL. SJFA - No
• Winner gets automatic entry into the Betfred Cup Group Stage, £17,000 minimum prize money, guaranteed 2 home matches in group also. SJFA - No
• Top 4 qualify for Irn Bru Cup, minimum £3,000 Prize money. SJFA - No
• Up to £20,000 funding as a LL club available from Scottish Football Partnership towards ground improvements. SJFA - No

[Spyro]

32 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

 

Who’s to know until somebody bothers trying?!

Instead of the constant, “what if”s and “but what about that”... you’ve got to start somewhere (the EoS did once upon a time, as did the LL!) but most people prefer to have an attitude of, “ach but we can’t have this and there won’t be that”... better not to bother putting a team out at all then. Safest option! 

Edited June 19, 2019 by Spyro

[FairWeatherFan]

1 minute ago, Spyro said:

better not to bother putting a team out at all then.

There all competing in the West Region. You want them to give that up for something potentially worse with no guarantees. The EoSFL started in 1923 so comparing its beginnings isn't the same.

The LL is a better comparison but they also had the knowledge of being the one of two feeders leagues to the SPFL after a trial season. 11/12 were members of the SFA so had their Scottish Cup entry guaranteed, SFA payments guaranteed, access to grants by being SFA members, plus membership to the EoSFA and Southern Counties FA that provided them additional cup competitions.

The SFA has just spent a year plus dealing with the SJFA, EoS, LL and SoS and apparently said at the EoS meeting that if they tried to change the LL Play-off they would step in. Who's to even say the SFA would acknowlege the WoSFL as in the pyramid and eligible for licensing? How's the Lowland League Play-off going to work between the WoSFL, EoSFL and SoSFL don't know. How's the South & East of Scotland Cup-Winners Shield going to be amended to allow West of Scotland clubs entry.

 

[Spyro]

I’m bored now, they can do what they want... play on cinder pitches and pretend it’s 1970 for all I care. Wonder why our national team are a laughing stock and we are rules by Boris Johnston and his Westminster crew... it all makes sense to me now.

 I must just be too young and naive to know better