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Lowland League football, what is the future?


Pyramidic

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Most people will be aware of the impact that Burnie_man's "Junior football, what is the future?" thread has has over the last couple of years on the development of the Pyramid.  Perhaps now is the time for a similar thread covering a higher echelon of the Pyramid.


In my view today, 14th June 2019, marks the day when the Lowland League has truly come of age with a quality side - Bonnyrigg Rose Athletic - finally getting their long awaited SFA Full Licence and promotion from the EOSL to the LL. They are joining Berwick Rangers recently relegated from the SPFL2 so at long last we have got a fully operational LL cog within the SFA Pyramid.

It all appears a great success.  However, if we delve a little below the surface there are a number of issues of real concern:

1. The difficulties faced by LL sides in gaining a promotion place to SPFL2 - being subject to two rounds of playoffs.

2. The difficulty of creating more relegation/promotion places (say up to three) between the LL [Tier 5] and EOSL / SOSL / WOSL(?) [Tier 6].

3. The possibility of creating a LL2 (single division of 16 teams) with clubs from EOS and West Region JFA.

4. The possibility of creating a LL2 East (16 teams) and LL2 West (16 teams).

5. The problems created by the SFA's Licensing debacle.

6. The increasing problem of self-preservation / conservatism of the existing LL membership - avoiding changes for the greater benefit of Non League football in general in order to safeguard the self-benefits of current LL clubs.

7. The problems of working with the Pyramid Working Group / Lowland League Sub-Group and agreeing positive solutions.

8. The difficulties created by the lack of understanding, leadership and innovation by the SFA.


I do not propose to come forward with suggested solutions to these issues today.  But I do think they are worthy of discussion and debate. I hope that you agree.

Edited by Pyramidic
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22 minutes ago, Pyramidic said:

Most people will be aware of the impact that Burnie_man's "Junior football, what is the future?" thread has has over the last couple of years on the development of the Pyramid.  Perhaps now is the time for a similar thread covering a higher echelon of the Pyramid.


In my view today, 14th June 2019, marks the day when the Lowland League has truly come of age with a quality side - Bonnyrigg Rose Athletic - finally getting their long awaited SFA Full Licence and promotion from the EOSL to the LL. They are joining Berwick Rangers recently relegated from the SPFL2 so at long last we have got a fully operational LL cog within the SFA Pyramid.

It all appears a great success.  However, if we delve a little below the surface there are a number of issues of real concern:

1. The difficulties faced by LL sides in gaining a promotion place to SPFL2 - being subject to two rounds of playoffs.

2. The variance in interpretation of the LL relegation regulations (when the SPFL2 bottom club is relegated but no LL club is promoted)

3. The difficulty of creating more relegation/promotion places (say up to three) between the LL [Tier 5] and EOSL / SOSL / WOSL(?) [Tier 6].

4. The possibility of creating a LL2 (single division of 16 teams) with clubs from EOS and West Region JFA.

5. The possibility of creating a LL2 East (16 teams) and LL2 West (16 teams).

6. The problems created by the SFA's Licensing debacle.

7. The increasing problem of self-preservation / conservatism of the existing LL membership - avoiding changes for the greater benefit of Non League football in general in order to safeguard the self-benefits of current LL clubs.

8. The problems of working with the Pyramid Working Group / Lowland League Sub-Group and agreeing positive solutions.

9. The difficulties created by the lack of understanding, leadership and innovation by the SFA.


I do not propose to come forward with suggested solutions to these issues today.  But I do think they are worthy of discussion and debate. I hope that you agree.

For a start 1 & 7 are related, LL clubs aren’t going to vote for more relegation when the SPFL clubs won’t do the exact same thing.

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10 minutes ago, The Informer said:

For a start 1 & 7 are related, LL clubs aren’t going to vote for more relegation when the SPFL clubs won’t do the exact same thing.

It is difficult to manage a proper functioning Pyramid if there is only a single relegation place from LL to Tier 6.  For a start why could there not be a Play-Off place between LL (15th place) and EOSL (2nd place)?  Bringing in SOSL as appropriate if Licensing requirements can be met.

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16 minutes ago, Ginaro said:

You can remove number 2 as it's no issue at all if you read the LL rules, which list what happens if there's a net gain/loss of teams with the SPFL.

You make a valid point.  I included as it has been subject to recent debate.

I have deleted it.

Edited by Pyramidic
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8 minutes ago, Pyramidic said:

It is difficult to manage a proper functioning Pyramid if there is only a single relegation place from LL to Tier 6.  For a start why could there not be a Play-Off place between LL (15th place) and EOSL (2nd place)?  Bringing in SOSL as appropriate if Licensing requirements can be met.

That would require a members vote, and as with SPFL members, turkeys aren’t going to vote for Xmas.

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1 minute ago, The Informer said:

That would require a members vote, and as with SPFL members, turkeys aren’t going to vote for Xmas.

This is the basic problem.  However, clubs can vote for the "greater good" as in the case of the original EOSL clubs accepting the large contingent of ERJFA clubs.

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Surely the preamble about Bonnyrigg equally applies to Kelty last season?

There are issues - basically promotion/relegation - but I'd think most people see LL as going from strength-to-strength, certainly not as beset with troubles or requiring major intervention.

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39 minutes ago, Pyramidic said:

This is the basic problem.  However, clubs can vote for the "greater good" as in the case of the original EOSL clubs accepting the large contingent of ERJFA clubs.

That is a really good point. If the SFA was run by the selfless dedication as exemplified by the leadership of the EoSL over the last few years, and of the calibre of character of the late Turnbull Hutton, then Scottish football, at all levels, would be finely tuned to progress and advance.

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9 hours ago, Pyramidic said:

Most people will be aware of the impact that Burnie_man's "Junior football, what is the future?" thread has has over the last couple of years on the development of the Pyramid.  Perhaps now is the time for a similar thread covering a higher echelon of the Pyramid.


In my view today, 14th June 2019, marks the day when the Lowland League has truly come of age with a quality side - Bonnyrigg Rose Athletic - finally getting their long awaited SFA Full Licence and promotion from the EOSL to the LL. They are joining Berwick Rangers recently relegated from the SPFL2 so at long last we have got a fully operational LL cog within the SFA Pyramid.

It all appears a great success.  However, if we delve a little below the surface there are a number of issues of real concern:

1. The difficulties faced by LL sides in gaining a promotion place to SPFL2 - being subject to two rounds of playoffs.

2. The difficulty of creating more relegation/promotion places (say up to three) between the LL [Tier 5] and EOSL / SOSL / WOSL(?) [Tier 6].

3. The possibility of creating a LL2 (single division of 16 teams) with clubs from EOS and West Region JFA.

4. The possibility of creating a LL2 East (16 teams) and LL2 West (16 teams).

5. The problems created by the SFA's Licensing debacle.

6. The increasing problem of self-preservation / conservatism of the existing LL membership - avoiding changes for the greater benefit of Non League football in general in order to safeguard the self-benefits of current LL clubs.

7. The problems of working with the Pyramid Working Group / Lowland League Sub-Group and agreeing positive solutions.

8. The difficulties created by the lack of understanding, leadership and innovation by the SFA.


I do not propose to come forward with suggested solutions to these issues today.  But I do think they are worthy of discussion and debate. I hope that you agree.

Another pyramid thread knew there was something missing just what the forum needs. 

Stopped reading after yer mention of Bonnyrigg being quality side. Wee bit patronising imo. 

 

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9 hours ago, Pyramidic said:

6. The increasing problem of self-preservation / conservatism of the existing LL membership - avoiding changes for the greater benefit of Non League football in general in order to safeguard the self-benefits of current LL clubs.

The Lowland League that extended the March 31st deadline leading to the relegation of a founding member is all about conservatism?

It was BSC that originally proposed a WoSFL which kickstarted a lot of this. The LL2 idea is a way to bring more clubs in from the West of Scotland and get a more inclusive pyramid by breaking the deadlock with the SJFA.

The only thing that can be self preservation was trying to change the relegation rule this year due to Selkirk going bust, which is hopefully going to be a unique set of circumstances and understandable considering the situation.

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Promotion to and relegation from the LL, I feel was always going to evolve.

In the past, having one, with the possibility of more, relegation places, this generally matched the numbers who were licenced and eligible for promotion. Not a lot of point of lots of relegation places if few to fill them.

The situation has now evolved into the situation where there is now a much greater pool of teams licenced, and looking for promotion.

I suspect we have only now reached a point where the LL will probably revisit this aspect of the rules and look to change things.

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10 hours ago, The Informer said:

For a start 1 & 7 are related, LL clubs aren’t going to vote for more relegation when the SPFL clubs won’t do the exact same thing.

Neither are linked IMO.  Why should promotion to the SPFL be linked to relegation from the LL to tier 6? 

I'd go as far as to say opening up the LL more to tier 6 clubs further stengthens the LL and therefore provides more of a case for further SPFL access.  That, plus a West feeder probably needs to be in place with clubs moving into LL, before the SPFL give it further consideration.

The LL needs to make the first move.  West feeder plus 2 relegation spots and the SPFL might start to listen.

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Dalbeattie or Gretna have much better chance of getting back to the LL if they go doon than the whole of the east at tier 6. 

Very weak league and all would need is beat EOSFL winners  ? 

Dont see where pyramid is coming from, how can it be strong in east wi feck all in west and south  ? 

I'm sure I've said this somewhere before though :o

 

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2 minutes ago, newcastle broon said:

Dalbeattie or Gretna have much better chance of getting back to the LL if they go doon than the whole of the east at tier 6. 

Very weak league and all would need is beat EOSFL winners  ? 

Dont see where pyramid is coming from, how can it be strong in east wi feck all in west and south  ? 

I'm sure I've said this somewhere before though :o

It's not known if Gretna have moved to being a SoS club if they were to be relegated. They still participate in the EoS Qualifying Cup which makes them a EoSFA member at the very least.

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23 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

It's not known if Gretna have moved to being a SoS club if they were to be relegated. They still participate in the EoS Qualifying Cup which makes them a EoSFA member at the very least.

Good point wouldn't be a surprise then if they went SOSFL if they had a poor season. 

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Clubs don't choose where they go. Before the season starts they are allocated to either side of the salt & sauce line in the event of relegation. Gretna and Dalbeattie - and the Lanarkshire sides etc. - would go to SOSFL. There actually used to be a list on LL website but they don't seem to bother now.

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Dalbeattie or Gretna have much better chance of getting back to the LL if they go doon than the whole of the east at tier 6. 

Very weak league and all would need is beat EOSFL winners  ? 

Dont see where pyramid is coming from, how can it be strong in east wi feck all in west and south  ? 

I'm sure I've said this somewhere before though [emoji33]

 

Once the west are properly into the pyramid, I think the SoSFL would be better off feeding into a west tier 6 league. No disrespect to the SoSFL, but the standard there is much lower and with them being a primarily D&G league they cover too small of an area to be a LL feeder imo.

Even though you have a point re. Dalbeattie & Gretna, dropping in the SoSFL could also be harmful to them. You guys are dropping into a strong league with plenty of well supported teams. That gives you the chance to build in the EoSFL and hopefully for you challenge there in the near future. You can say that Dalbeattie & Gretna "just need to beat the EoSFL winners". However, if you play much weaker opposition all season, having to perform in one tie against stronger opposition can be more difficult having hardly been tested throughout the season. Also, if it fails, being in the SoSFL for the longer term will definitely be more damaging to ambitious clubs than being in the EoSFL.

 

 

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