Gender Self-ID

[Baxter Parp]

Just now, welshbairn said:

Does this happen a lot then?

There are documented issues already and self-id isn't a thing yet.  The issue isn't with transwomen, it's with men.  If women could self-id as male nobody would give a shit about them invading male spaces (they wouldn't because men are awful).  It seems nobody has given a thought about men being able to declare themselves as female.

[topcat(The most tip top)]

I don't think you can write legislation on the basis of probability. It needs to work for everyone.

In an uncertain world all policy is to some extent written on the basis of probability.

[Falkirk's 4th Stand]

These replies give me big sad

[welshbairn]

1 minute ago, Baxter Parp said:

There are documented issues already and self-id isn't a thing yet.  The issue isn't with transwomen, it's with men.  If women could self-id as male nobody would give a shit about them invading male spaces (they wouldn't because men are awful).  It seems nobody has given a thought about men being able to declare themselves as female.

Those are very rare events and people can already self-id, the new plans just simplify the process. Refuges can already ban people from entering, whatever sex or gender. It's a hyped up Mrs Lovejoy invention.

[Baxter Parp]

Just now, welshbairn said:

Those are very rare events and people can already self-id, the new plans just simplify the process. Refuges can already ban people from entering, whatever sex or gender. It's a hyped up Mrs Lovejoy invention.

What rare events are you referring to? Toilets and changing rooms generally cannot ban anyone entering if they can self-declare, btw.

[Savage Henry]

Those are very rare events and people can already self-id, the new plans just simplify the process. Refuges can already ban people from entering, whatever sex or gender. It's a hyped up Mrs Lovejoy invention.

It is.

I’m inclined to believe that there’s an ulterior motive at play from the protestations, but I’m really hard pressed to name what it is.

Preventing duplicitous men isn’t a good enough motive.

[Am Featha Taigh Nan Clach]

As far as I can see the people who oppose this are

 

a) outright bigots

b ) bigots pretending to care about threats to women in changing rooms/toilets from trans women

c) women worried about threats from trans women in changing rooms/toilets

 

Are there many in category c? Genuinely asking as I don't know too much about the subject

 

 

[Baxter Parp]

2 minutes ago, Savage Henry said:

Preventing duplicitous men isn’t a good enough motive.

 

Are men not duplicitous?  Please show your workings.

[welshbairn]

Just now, Baxter Parp said:

What rare events are you referring to? Toilets and changing rooms generally cannot ban anyone entering if they can self-declare, btw.

Your documented issues, whatever they are. Do you suggest having toilet genitalia inspectors to prevent widespread misuse of the facilities?

[Detournement]

5 minutes ago, Savage Henry said:

Preventing duplicitous men isn’t a good enough motive.

It's a good enough motive for a huge national safeguarding disclosure system to protect children.

Reading into it Scottish Women's Aid have said that as no one currently requires to present proof of gender to access women only spaces nothing changes but there is clearly a discretionary judgement made by the staff in refuges based on the current gender ID laws. When the laws change the decision making process will also have to change.

Edited June 14, 2019 by Detournement

[Miguel Sanchez]

3 minutes ago, Baxter Parp said:

What rare events are you referring to? Toilets and changing rooms generally cannot ban anyone entering if they can self-declare, btw.

Out of interest

The issue people raise on this subject is "if people can self-identify, what's to stop a man from saying he's a woman and going into a women-only place and doing bad things?"

To which my response is: The same thing that stops them now. Someone going into a female toilet and having a w**k isn't suddenly going to get away with it because they say they're female. 

[Baxter Parp]

Just now, welshbairn said:

Your documented issues, whatever they are. Do you suggest having toilet genitalia inspectors to prevent widespread misuse of the facilities?

I suggest a hairy plumber declaring himself female and invading the local Top Shop changing rooms is a bad idea. That is all.  Please do explain how that is acceptable and indeed preferable.

[Detournement]

1 minute ago, Miguel Sanchez said:

To which my response is: The same thing that stops them now. Someone going into a female toilet and having a w**k isn't suddenly going to get away with it because they say they're female. 

I agree with that. Signs on doors aren't preventing any crimes at the moments.

Refuges are a different matter though.

[welshbairn]

1 minute ago, Detournement said:

I agree with that. Signs on doors aren't preventing any crimes at the moments.

Refuges are a different matter though.

Refuges can already stop anyone coming in who they think could be a danger, that's rather the point of them.

[Savage Henry]

Out of interest
The issue people raise on this subject is "if people can self-identify, what's to stop a man from saying he's a woman and going into a women-only place and doing bad things?"
To which my response is: The same thing that stops them now. Someone going into a female toilet and having a w**k isn't suddenly going to get away with it because they say they're female. 

Yup. I genuinely don’t see how this legislation will lead to an increase in nefarious behaviour.

[Baxter Parp]

2 minutes ago, Miguel Sanchez said:

Out of interest

The issue people raise on this subject is "if people can self-identify, what's to stop a man from saying he's a woman and going into a women-only place and doing bad things?"

To which my response is: The same thing that stops them now. Someone going into a female toilet and having a w**k isn't suddenly going to get away with it because they say they're female. 

Who will stop a self declared person from  going into a safe space if the law allows it? 

[Baxter Parp]

"@beneboy303
It is about women's spaces, I used to work with disabled people, many of them had limited communication & it is vital to them that they get a person of the appropriate sex to manage their intimate care. Self-ID would make that impossible to enforce, further eroding their rights."

This is about rights, right enough.

[Detournement]

1 minute ago, welshbairn said:

Refuges can already stop anyone coming in who they think could be a danger, that's rather the point of them.

I don't think they refuse entry to women.

[welshbairn]

2 minutes ago, Detournement said:

I don't think they refuse entry to women.

They do if they think they have hostile intent. Watch the Mhairi Black speech above.

[Savage Henry]

This thread is interesting, seems terfy groups are receiving support from the American religious right.
 
 

What interests me is why so many SNP/Independence white men have taken against the SNP on this matter. I really don’t get why this is the issue which threatens to “derail the movement”.