SJFA AGM Perth 15/06/19

[Beenzon-Toste]

It's going to be a discussion point at the Clydebank AGM on the 25th July. Since they've already had a previous vote to move into the pyramid, they may well reiterate that point.

And what route do you think that will be?

[Wile E Coyote]

4 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

 

Do you want to see Talbot remain Junior?

I will give you a genuine answer to this.

No, my wish is for an integrated pyramid but the way the current pyramid is set up that isn't going to happen.  The top west region clubs are some of the best in non-league football but slotting the west region in below the LL means it will probably take more than a decade for the pyramid to level out. That is too long and a potential loss of income  over a period of time to entertain at this moment

[Burnie_man]

5 minutes ago, Beenzon-Toste said:

41 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

The SFA can't dictate the promotion and relegation policies of the SPFL. So your forcing automatic relegation of the SPFL is straight out of cloud cuckoo land.

Just for those that suffer from 'hard of thinking' I was referring to the possibility of lower league clubs getting together to bring about changes that would not meet favour with SPFL clubs. Which cannot now happen due to the voting restrictions to be imposed on any future licences.

For the hard of thinking, there are more full members of the SFA at tier 5 or below, than there are in the SPFL, and that has just increased by 6

[AlanCamelonfan]

12 minutes ago, Wile E Coyote said:

Perhaps you've missed the fact that its the pyramid zealots who are always on the JUNIOR forum. They can't leave it alone.

 

Incidentally any of the zealots want to address the fact that two of its clubs died this year in this Utopia 

Thats because we want everyone to be in the one place. If the Junior clubs came out and said they didn't want to be part of the pyramid that would be the end of it. They are either doing it to cause trouble or they want to be part of the pyramid.

Plenty of Junior clubs have went bust over the years it happens at all levels.

[Burnie_man]

Just now, Wile E Coyote said:

I will give you a genuine answer to this.

No, my wish is for an integrated pyramid but the way the current pyramid is set up that isn't going to happen.  The top west region clubs are some of the best in non-league football but slotting the west region in below the LL means it will probably take more than a decade for the pyramid to level out. That is too long and a potential loss of income  over a period of time to entertain at this moment

What loss of income? you just made well over £100k from senior football, and Talbot can reasonably expect to be Licenced within a year of a WoS joining the Pyramid, guaranteeing access to the Scottish Cup every season.

[FairWeatherFan]

2 minutes ago, Beenzon-Toste said:

38 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

The SFA can't dictate the promotion and relegation policies of the SPFL. So your forcing automatic relegation of the SPFL is straight out of cloud cuckoo land.

Just for those that suffer from 'hard of thinking' I was referring to the possibility of lower league clubs getting together to bring about changes that would not meet favour with SPFL clubs. Which cannot now happen due to the voting restrictions to be imposed on any future licences.

Using an example that wouldn't apply as the SFA can't dictate the promotion and relegation policies of the SPFL.

1 minute ago, Beenzon-Toste said:

22 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

It's going to be a discussion point at the Clydebank AGM on the 25th July. Since they've already had a previous vote to move into the pyramid, they may well reiterate that point.

And what route do you think that will be?

The Clydebank vote was split in some regards between Junior/Senior last time. Senior won out without a real idea of what that would mean. I don't have the inside track on what the majority will think or do.

[AlanCamelonfan]

2 minutes ago, Wile E Coyote said:

I will give you a genuine answer to this.

No, my wish is for an integrated pyramid but the way the current pyramid is set up that isn't going to happen.  The top west region clubs are some of the best in non-league football but slotting the west region in below the LL means it will probably take more than a decade for the pyramid to level out. That is too long and a potential loss of income  over a period of time to entertain at this moment

So you would rather potentially go out the game than shape the future. TOo many people are looking at it as the hear and now. In 10 years you could look back at it and go we could have been in the pyramid

[mick90]

In starting the `pyramid campaign` (1994), a large part of our concern was the `sustainability` of clubs, many of which were simply disappearing in the wake of supporter and financial decline ... thus we promoted the concept of `community clubs`, where they would have teams at all levels and both sexes, leading to a large membership. The error on this thread is to assume that `junior` is any different to `senior` in this respect, since in the past 24 years almost all junior clubs have been expanding in this way, to have amateur, youth and womens sections. We said Scottish football should aim for 500 clubs instead of 6700 ... and that number has fallen by half. Taken from this viewpoint ... Junior football no longer actually exists ... it died in 1960, when attendances began to fall, especially in the cup ... and now it is changing (probably not fast enough in the west and north-east) in line with what NEEDS TO BE DONE ... not in line with any `ethos of SJFA` ...

At the end of the day ... to climb the standards ladder again ... we need much bigger and better clubs and we need them in ONE SYSTEM ... hopefully not run by any of the idiots in `authority` today ..

[shuggie123]

 

37 minutes ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

WEll thats fine let the Juniors stay Junior and let the rest of us get on with it

 

12 minutes ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

Thats because we want everyone to be in the one place. If the Junior clubs came out and said they didn't want to be part of the pyramid that would be the end of it. They are either doing it to cause trouble or they want to be part of the pyramid.

Plenty of Junior clubs have went bust over the years it happens at all levels.

You don't seem to know what you want, Alan. 

[wow-wee]

48 minutes ago, Beenzon-Toste said:

And yet, not one club, West, East or North, not one of them appears to agree with you. 

Oh and here's some more info for you.

I attended a lot of games throughout the season (Junior Games, by the way. So I can't comment on others) and I believe I heard pyramid being mentioned at least, hmmm, let me see now, oh it must have been at least, --------------- nope, sorry, never. I have to come here to find out what it's all about.

Well every game the buffs go every team is talking about the pyramid and fans and officials are constantly asking each other what and when is it happening.

[gaz5]

So, is that the same as when the EOSL got Dalkeith and Dunipace instead of Bo'ness and Linlithgow Rose?

What's your point here?

Dalkeith and Dunipace were in the initial 13 applicants to be accepted into the EoS league last season. Part of the "leading" group if you will.

Both clubs did their due diligence and decided that the EoS was the best place for them to grow and, from our point of view certainly, in the year since then no one has changed their minds in the slightest. In fact, quite the opposite, we couldn't be happier.

We didn't change our name to "Auchinleck Talbot" before we moved to the EoS to try and pass ourselves off as someone else, we went as we were and publicised our reasons behind the decision. As did Dalkeith.

So really, your comparison is, well, apples and pears.

Everything about the EoS league, from the meetings to the people to the way it is run has done little but confirm that our decision was the right one. Further, when we compare our experiences of the two setups, the EoSL and EoSFA in our single season thus far have provided a better "product" for us to consume and sell to our community than we've had in the last 20 years.

Fixture lists, night games under lights, a season with an end date and an off season, cup draws, no holdup for months to get a game played, no mad end of season rush to play 3 games a week not having played for months in winter due to "the cup", no getting games a week or two in advance, answers to emails prompt and informative, an approachable leadership who genuinely seem like they are there to help, joined up thinking with the league and association above, match balls, defibrillators, training balls, insurances, under 20's, access to funding etc. etc.

It's all in advance of the Junior "product", at an organisational level, in our experience. That's not "talking down" the juniors, that's pointing out quantifiable differences that have made things better for us.

And the football on the park? Still the same game. No one comes to our games thinking "this doesn't feel Junior anymore" because no one came to our games thinking that in the first place.

In terms of the new clubs in the juniors and being sold as "teams moving back" or "having a safety net" that simply isn't the case in my view.

Syngenta (who will be renting our ground) wanted to move to the EoS, but were refused on the basis of not meeting the criteria. (I won't even make the point that in order to be accepted into the juniors they are having to rent an EoS ground and what Clydebank might think of that after what they and Yoker were told about ground sharing between teams in different associations not being allowed - seems that "rule" has changed this season).

The team who will be Sauchie also discussed with us the potential of running a reserve team in the Juniors, mainly as a place for our 20's to go if they were too old but not ready for our First Team. We declined. Sauchie have decided to go ahead with that.

Two other clubs have changed their names to look like something they're not and some people have jumped on it.

Good luck to them, I actually don't have any issues with them moving to the juniors and I'm sure most others don't either. I think what most people take issue to is folk other than those clubs themselves trying to make it out to be something that it's not.

[Burnie_man]

Well every game the buffs go every team is talking about the pyramid and fans and officials are constantly asking each other what and when is it happening.

Beenze wrong again [emoji85]

[AlanCamelonfan]

23 minutes ago, shuggie123 said:

 

 

You don't seem to know what you want, Alan. 

Iam quite clear south of Tay to join eosfl and west to be westablished feeder and Tayside go north. I have never changed my stance. But if juniors want to stay junior outside he pyramid that's fine just stay out

[Sure & Stedfast]

12 minutes ago, gaz5 said:

What's your point here?

Dalkeith and Dunipace were in the initial 13 applicants to be accepted into the EoS league last season. Part of the "leading" group if you will.

Both clubs did their due diligence and decided that the EoS was the best place for them to grow and, from our point of view certainly, in the year since then no one has changed their minds in the slightest. In fact, quite the opposite, we couldn't be happier.

We didn't change our name to "Auchinleck Talbot" before we moved to the EoS to try and pass ourselves off as someone else, we went as we were and publicised our reasons behind the decision. As did Dalkeith.

So really, your comparison is, well, apples and pears.

Everything about the EoS league, from the meetings to the people to the way it is run has done little but confirm that our decision was the right one. Further, when we compare our experiences of the two setups, the EoSL and EoSFA in our single season thus far have provided a better "product" for us to consume and sell to our community than we've had in the last 20 years.

Fixture lists, night games under lights, a season with an end date and an off season, cup draws, no holdup for months to get a game played, no mad end of season rush to play 3 games a week not having played for months in winter due to "the cup", no getting games a week or two in advance, answers to emails prompt and informative, an approachable leadership who genuinely seem like they are there to help, joined up thinking with the league and association above, match balls, defibrillators, training balls, insurances, under 20's, access to funding etc. etc.

It's all in advance of the Junior "product", at an organisational level, in our experience. That's not "talking down" the juniors, that's pointing out quantifiable differences that have made things better for us.

And the football on the park? Still the same game. No one comes to our games thinking "this doesn't feel Junior anymore" because no one came to our games thinking that in the first place.

In terms of the new clubs in the juniors and being sold as "teams moving back" or "having a safety net" that simply isn't the case in my view.

Syngenta (who will be renting our ground) wanted to move to the EoS, but were refused on the basis of not meeting the criteria. (I won't even make the point that in order to be accepted into the juniors they are having to rent an EoS ground and what Clydebank might think of that after what they and Yoker were told about ground sharing between teams in different associations not being allowed - seems that "rule" has changed this season).

The team who will be Sauchie also discussed with us the potential of running a reserve team in the Juniors, mainly as a place for our 20's to go if they were too old but not ready for our First Team. We declined. Sauchie have decided to go ahead with that.

Two other clubs have changed their names to look like something they're not and some people have jumped on it.

Good luck to them, I actually don't have any issues with them moving to the juniors and I'm sure most others don't either. I think what most people take issue to is folk other than those clubs themselves trying to make it out to be something that it's not.

Linlithgow Rose CFC haven’t changed their name.

The former Linlithgow Thistle changed their name to go under the Bo’ness United banner and be what you’ve said about Sauchie - it’s considered more likely to produce a player ready for EoS through Junior than amateur / U20s. As you were part of the”leading pack” of the exodus, I’ll think you’ll find Linlithgow Thistle and Bo’ness United coming together was the “pioneer” of that particular concept! 

It’s no tribute act as far I can see. It’s part of the football pathway in Bo’ness and as far as I know,  the senior and junior clubs are in close communications with players, training arrangements etc

[San Starko Rover]

So in the past two years off the top of my head

A former Junior team has reached the SPFL
2 have entered the Lowland league
Around 15 have switched grades
Ian Maxwell's done deal e-mail
EOS & LL block proposal 
Change to licence 
Licence embargo 
New teams in Scottish Cup 
ERJFA restructure

2 WRJFA teams apply for licence

But not one person has discussed this in ear shot of Beenze.  For or against the pyramid if you've not heard anyone mention it you're clearly standing in a broken phone box.  

Edited June 16, 2019 by San Starko Rover

[AlanCamelonfan]

1 minute ago, Sure & Stedfast said:

Linlithgow Rose CFC haven’t changed their name.

The former Linlithgow Thistle changed their name to go under the Bo’ness United banner and be what you’ve said about Sauchie - it’s considered more likely to produce a player ready for EoS through Junior than amateur / U20s. As you were part of the”leading pack” of the exodus, I’ll think you’ll find Linlithgow Thistle and Bo’ness United coming together was the “pioneer” of that particular concept! 

It’s no tribute act as far I can see. It’s part of the football pathway in Bo’ness and as far as I know,  the senior and junior clubs are in close communications with players, training arrangements etc

They really aren't. They are basically two separate clubs

[Sure & Stedfast]

19 minutes ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

They really aren't. They are basically two separate clubs

Two separate committees, agreed. However, there is an agreed Memorandum of Understanding between the two clubs. Same strips, etc. I’d say that would indicate they were part of the Bo’ness United model. 

Who knows, Camelon might be next...

Edited June 16, 2019 by Sure & Stedfast

[gaz5]

Linlithgow Rose CFC haven’t changed their name. The former Linlithgow Thistle changed their name to go under the Bo’ness United banner and be what you’ve said about Sauchie - it’s considered more likely to produce a player ready for EoS through Junior than amateur / U20s. As you were part of the”leading pack” of the exodus, I’ll think you’ll find Linlithgow Thistle and Bo’ness United coming together was the “pioneer” of that particular concept!  It’s no tribute act as far I can see. It’s part of the football pathway in Bo’ness and as far as I know,  the senior and junior clubs are in close communications with players, training arrangements etc

 

 

 Fair point on Linlithgow CFC, I thought they had added "Rose" to the name based on the posters on here quoting their return. Which was kinda the point I was making.

 

I've not called either club a "tribute act" and I don't have any issue with either club doing whatever they want to do. As I said in the post you quoted, good luck to both and I've said that in posts before, any club looking to better themselves is a good thing.

 

I know Linlithgow Thistle are a very well run club, don't know much about Linlithgow CFC so can't comment there.

 

My issue, as I said, is with other people passing them (you?) off as something they are not. It's as much a disservice to those clubs as it is Junior football. You are not Bo'ness United returning from the EoS.

 

You're reading too much into my "leading" comment. That was tongue and cheek fur the poster I responded to. [emoji846]

 

Yes, the "more likely" to produce a player through Juniors was how it was sold to us as well.

 

We had 38 EoS appearances from 20's players last season, 6 from our amateurs, from 11 different players. We've promoted 3 20's and 2 of our Ams in pre season. And we also had a good number of first team appearances (15+) in our 20's/Ams for players coming back from injury.

 

We decided the junior route was less likely for us to produce players and we didn't want a second team where players would expect "compensated", when we don't have that with 20's or Ams.

 

There's also the "registration" issue, where at present our 20's can just play for the first team any time and we can send first team players back for 6 games a season at any time. That also wasn't possible with the junior route, given the registration issue with it.

 

Will be interesting to see how many players from these junior teams step up to the senior teams.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Marten]

20 minutes ago, San Starko Rover said:

So in the past two years off the top of my head

A former Junior team has reached the SPFL
2 have entered the Lowland league
Around 15 have switched grades
Ian Maxwell's done deal e-mail
EOS & LL block proposal 
Change to licence 
Licence embargo 
New teams in Scottish Cup 
ERJFA restructure

2 WRJFA teams apply for licence

But not one person has discussed this in ear shot of Beenze.  For or against the pyramid if you've not heard anyone mention it you're clearly standing in a broken phone box.  

I wonder which games he goes to then... I've heard it discussed plenty of times when going to junior matches. Regardless whether comments on the pyramid were positive or negative, there have been comments either way regularly. Obviously most of the games I went to were in the east, but at least at 2 games in Ayrshire I heard people talking about it as well.

[Sure & Stedfast]

5 minutes ago, gaz5 said:

 

My issue, as I said, is with other people passing them (you?) off as something they are not. It's as much a disservice to those clubs as it is Junior football. You are not Bo'ness United returning from the EoS.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Good points. 

In terms of (you?), no not me!! I know some of the guys  involved quite well but I’m not directly involved!