Muzza81 Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 57 minutes ago, brechin21 said: no manager in the lower leagues deserves to be paid for failure. While I like the sentiment if someone has a contract they are entitled to be paid for the duration of that contract. If the employer wants to end it early they need to pay it up. That is the reality of football. No sure why this is unique to lower league football though, do Scottish Premiership managers deserve to be paid for faile? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brazilianlex Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 3 hours ago, Muzza81 said: While I like the sentiment if someone has a contract they are entitled to be paid for the duration of that contract. If the employer wants to end it early they need to pay it up. That is the reality of football. No sure why this is unique to lower league football though, do Scottish Premiership managers deserve to be paid for faile? Premiership managers have a fallback position when they sacked, they are immediately employed as a tv / radio pundit. ! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoriginalhedge Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 3 hours ago, Muzza81 said: While I like the sentiment if someone has a contract they are entitled to be paid for the duration of that contract. If the employer wants to end it early they need to pay it up. That is the reality of football. No sure why this is unique to lower league football though, do Scottish Premiership managers deserve to be paid for faile? It is only the reality of football because clubs have allowed it to become just that. Contracts are heavily loaded in managers' favours . Surely it is plausible to insert clauses or impose a procedure of warnings leading to dismissal should a manager drastically fail in his remit ? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muzza81 Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 38 minutes ago, theoriginalhedge said: It is only the reality of football because clubs have allowed it to become just that. Contracts are heavily loaded in managers' favours . Surely it is plausible to insert clauses or impose a procedure of warnings leading to dismissal should a manager drastically fail in his remit ? Such as? Most lower league managers will be on 1 year deals. So give me an example of a situation in your hypothetical? Smith for example has been sacked after 3 games or so. He could absolutely argue his team would still make the promotion playoffs (assuming that’s his set target). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onecowden Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 You can only be sacked for gross misconduct. Managers will be relieved of their duties by mutual consent if things are not going well. Therefore some financial package will have to be agreed. The word sacked is used in most cases and is factually incorrect (in most cases). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gm_1982 Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 Such as? Most lower league managers will be on 1 year deals. So give me an example of a situation in your hypothetical? Smith for example has been sacked after 3 games or so. He could absolutely argue his team would still make the promotion playoffs (assuming that’s his set target). He wasn’t sacked 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muzza81 Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 2 minutes ago, gm_1982 said: He wasn’t sacked Yeah they have come to an agreement in the best interests of both parties. But in a situation where you could sack managers without paying them off he would 100% have been sacked. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoriginalhedge Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 18 minutes ago, Muzza81 said: Yeah they have come to an agreement in the best interests of both parties. But in a situation where you could sack managers without paying them off he would 100% have been sacked. He resigned. In the case of Darren Dods who's team failed to win a game all season , failing miserably again the following season to then expect a considerable pay off is wrong in my eyes. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muzza81 Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 4 minutes ago, theoriginalhedge said: He resigned. In the case of Darren Dods who's team failed to win a game all season , failing miserably again the following season to then expect a considerable pay off is wrong in my eyes. Was Dods still under contract at the end of that dismal season? If so that’s your club’s fault. You could easily structure a one year deal with an option of a second and not take it. Nothing to do with fairness. So you’re admitting it can only work come season end when most managers are out of contract anyway? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onecowden Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 30 minutes ago, theoriginalhedge said: He resigned. In the case of Darren Dods who's team failed to win a game all season , failing miserably again the following season to then expect a considerable pay off is wrong in my eyes. It's just honouring a contract(not a considerable pay off) that was signed by both parties. Employment law dictates this. There was no reason for him to be sacked. Bad results in a football league does not constitute gross misconduct. We should all be thankful this law is in place. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoriginalhedge Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 9 minutes ago, onecowden said: It's just honouring a contract(not a considerable pay off) that was signed by both parties. Employment law dictates this. There was no reason for him to be sacked. Bad results in a football league does not constitute gross misconduct. We should all be thankful this law is in place. All I am saying is that contracts could and should be drawn up to safeguard clubs as well as the managers. Football is a results driven industry after all. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onecowden Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 7 minutes ago, theoriginalhedge said: All I am saying is that contracts could and should be drawn up to safeguard clubs as well as the managers. Football is a results driven industry after all. As long as it is within the law, you can put whatever you like in a contract. The employers (club) can get it wrong by employing the wrong man. That's not the fault of the employee (manager) so he should be paid his contract. Many things can cause teams to go on a downward spiral - money for recruitment not given, injuries, suspensions, personell in the dressing room not conforming causing unrest. However I will be annoyingly repetetive here and mention employment law dictates severence pay or not. Mind you, if Demonic Raab gets his way that could all end. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoriginalhedge Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 44 minutes ago, Muzza81 said: Was Dods still under contract at the end of that dismal season? If so that’s your club’s fault. You could easily structure a one year deal with an option of a second and not take it. Nothing to do with fairness. So you’re admitting it can only work come season end when most managers are out of contract anyway? He probably was , which is the problem I was trying to highlight. Clubs in their quest for glory are always going to look on the optimistic side with any new manager and will do their utmost to give him all he asks for including attractive contracts. No one really predicts it going tits up at the start. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoriginalhedge Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 1 minute ago, onecowden said: As long as it is within the law, you can put whatever you like in a contract. The employers (club) can get it wrong by employing the wrong man. That's not the fault of the employee (manager) so he should be paid his contract. Many things can cause teams to go on a downward spiral - money for recruitment not given, injuries, suspensions, personell in the dressing room not conforming causing unrest. However I will be annoyingly repetetive here and mention employment law dictates severence pay or not. Mind you, if Demonic Raab gets his way that could all end. Spot on. It is maybe not as simplistic as I was making out. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MallanandFlanagan Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 Would you be interested in Gary Naysmith? Did well with East Fife and with us up until the last part of last season. He seems like a genuine hard working man 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brazilianlex Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 4 minutes ago, MallanandFlanagan said: Would you be interested in Gary Naysmith? Did well with East Fife and with us up until the last part of last season. He seems like a genuine hard working man Just got a good job at Hearts as their man in charge of loans - players not cash ! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MallanandFlanagan Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 It's not football management though. I think he is keen to get back in from what he said after he left us. I genuinely think he will be a successful manager in the future. It is a shame how Brechin have gone into free fall. I hope you stay up and stabilise. Why has this happened to Brechin. My first Queens match back in 1989 or 90 was a nil nil versus Brechin at Palmerston. Remember the challenge Cup final too. I think Dick Campbell was in charge of Brechin then. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowden Cowboy Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, theoriginalhedge said: All I am saying is that contracts could and should be drawn up to safeguard clubs as well as the managers. Football is a results driven industry after all. Yes but you wont get many good potential managers willing to sign up to a deal that offers him little or no security. Again you can use 2 way notice periods as if a manager does well another club might have to buy him out and pay you to release him. Managers are rarely sacked - rather they are paid what they are due under their contract and club says left by mutual agreement or even better for departing manager he gets the pay off and club says he decided to resign for the good of the club (unspoken is otherwise he would have been sacked with the same pay off!). In football there is no standard management culture - you don't get quarterly appraisals, performance improvement plans, etc in the same way you do in industry Edited September 2, 2019 by Cowden Cowboy 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoriginalhedge Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 43 minutes ago, Cowden Cowboy said: Yes but you wont get many good potential managers willing to sign up to a deal that offers him little or no security. Again you can use 2 way notice periods as if a manager does well another club might have to buy him out and pay you to release him. Managers are rarely sacked - rather they are paid what they are due under their contract and club says left by mutual agreement or even better for departing manager he gets the pay off and club says he decided to resign for the good of the club (unspoken is otherwise he would have been sacked with the same pay off!). In football there is no standard management culture - you don't get quarterly appraisals, performance improvement plans, etc in the same way you do in industry This is possibly where the problem lies and what I have been alluding to from the start. Most smaller clubs never stand in the way of a successful manager moving on as has been the case with us in our better years. When things go wrong on the other hand , a lot of managers hang on till the bitter end , unwilling to accept there are problems . Perhaps performance appraisals might be the way forward. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onecowden Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 50 minutes ago, theoriginalhedge said: This is possibly where the problem lies and what I have been alluding to from the start. Most smaller clubs never stand in the way of a successful manager moving on as has been the case with us in our better years. When things go wrong on the other hand , a lot of managers hang on till the bitter end , unwilling to accept there are problems . Perhaps performance appraisals might be the way forward. If contracts were drawn up with appraisals and improvement plans that would make it an extremely slow process. Barry Smith would still be Brechin City manager on an improvement plan. I'm sure that's not what the majority of Brechin fans would like. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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