Dundee United 2019/2020

[senorsoupe]

I would definitely been concerned about the wage to turnover expenditure ratio if I was a Dundee United fan.  That sort of spending on the expectation of on-pitch results has ended in tears for other teams in the past (see Leeds).  I get that capital expenditures on infrastructure are necessary for long term financial stability but spending a million more on wages alone than the entire club earned is reckless.

Also spending 4.1 million on wages at this level and not being able to get out of the division is embarrassing

[Ray Patterson]

3 hours ago, Skyline Drifter said:

Some, but not a massive amount, of merit in that I suspect.

 - How does a 'Boardroom Shake Up" cost the club money? Were some of the departed Directors salaried and needed paying off?

 - Coaches for Project Brave. Yes, I expect that increased salary costs, though not by hundreds of thousands. Actually other compliance costs with Project Brave were probably more costly.

 - Stadium Renovation. Yep, give you that one, it will be a P&L item. I don;t know Tannadice well enough, would there have been massive renovation / repair work on it last season?

- Buying back the club shop? If they had to physically buy back the club shop, it's likely this is a capital payment and not charged directly to the P&L (though there would be a depreciation / amortisation charge for it).

 - Buying Buildings. Certainly won't be charged to the Profit and loss account, though again it would lead to an increased depreciation charge.

 - Extending a lease - That just leads to additional future commitments. It's unlikely to have any current year profit and loss relevance.

I don't think much of what you've said there equates to a big part of a £3.7m loss. Depends how much "renovation" was done I suppose but it's unlikely to be more than a few hundred thousand of it at most. It's pretty clear the majority of that loss is generated by payroll costs.

United hired a new Chief Exec, New Sporting Director in Mal Brannigan and Tony Ashgar, and got shot of David Southern. (Also remember we paid off Csaba and his backroom staff)

There was quite a big Stadium renovation during the summer, there was a lot of work done on the Eddie Thompson and (possibly Jerry Kerr). We had scaffolding on the stand for the Betfred games.

Nike's UK License holder (can't remember their name) owned the club shop and United had to buy it back - albeit again no idea on the figures for this one

United have been buying buildings in between the club shop and Tannadice to build a new Social Club.

The Ticketing system was quite a big one too. 

Obviously the loss is concerning like I said in the original post. But I'm more worried like most on here with the wage/turnover ratio, as that is chronically unsustainable, even if it is cut considerably this season it will at best be in regions of 90+%.

I think there will be a lot of people at the AGM wanting to hear Brannigan and Ogren's take on this.

Great to see Dundee fans become such great accountants - especially when it comes to debt. Great to hear of our neighbours to tell us of their experiences.



 

[Granny Danger]

Taking advice from Funsters on the fiscal management of a football club would be akin to taking investment advice from Bernie Madoff.

 

[Chateau Lafite]

United hired a new Chief Exec, New Sporting Director in Mal Brannigan and Tony Ashgar, and got shot of David Southern. (Also remember we paid off Csaba and his backroom staff)

There was quite a big Stadium renovation during the summer, there was a lot of work done on the Eddie Thompson and (possibly Jerry Kerr). We had scaffolding on the stand for the Betfred games.

Nike's UK License holder (can't remember their name) owned the club shop and United had to buy it back - albeit again no idea on the figures for this one

United have been buying buildings in between the club shop and Tannadice to build a new Social Club.

The Ticketing system was quite a big one too. 

Obviously the loss is concerning like I said in the original post. But I'm more worried like most on here with the wage/turnover ratio, as that is chronically unsustainable, even if it is cut considerably this season it will at best be in regions of 90+%.

I think there will be a lot of people at the AGM wanting to hear Brannigan and Ogren's take on this.

Great to see Dundee fans become such great accountants - especially when it comes to debt. Great to hear of our neighbours to tell us of their experiences.



 

Dundee fans, or indeed any fan doesn’t need to be an accountant to see that United’s numbers are worrying. This Dundee fan that has had the shame of two administrations and the consequent years of struggle in the Championship is not wallowing in reading of United’s finances. We don’t make any profits either and with the past occurrences, I would say that I remember how shit I felt when I thought my team might disappear, yet thanks to supporters, well wishers and the Administrator we survived. That United continue to suffer sporting ignominy below the Dees for sometime yes, but to implode into financial oblivion, that’s not really pleasing at all.

[Ray Patterson]

1 minute ago, Chateau Lafite said:

Dundee fans, or indeed any fan doesn’t need to be an accountant to see that United’s numbers are worrying. This Dundee fan that has had the shame of two administrations and the consequent years of struggle in the Championship is not wallowing in reading of United’s finances. We don’t make any profits either and with the past occurrences, I would say that I remember how shit I felt when I thought my team might disappear, yet thanks to supporters, well wishers and the Administrator we survived. That United continue to suffer sporting ignominy below the Dees for sometime yes, but to implode into financial oblivion, that’s not really pleasing at all.

 

[Tannadeechee]

5 hours ago, arab_joe said:

Are you?  I'm pretty concerned that we have a Chairman that would allow us to run at such a loss.  He would hardly be the first to have ploughed a load of cash in, got bored, then left the club in a terrible state.

Shankland isn't the highest paid?  That is criminal if true.

Yes I am, as I explained in the full post. I'll say it again no one who was at the Q&A before the end of last season will be surprised Mark Ogren said the results that would be out later this year, meaning those just released would be bad, but to not worry. It was all planned long term. Much of this would be money set a side for one of investments and improvements at Tannadice which had been neglected over many years. He stated that the following years would be much better as these massive costs would not need to be repeated. 

The wage bill will not be anywhere near that now. As reports are sticking to the narrative of 11 in in January, we have also had pretty much the same number of 1st team squad leave during and just after the summer.

 

Been said repeatedly by the likes of Asghar that Shankland isn't the highest paid player. Was also mentioned that it was refreshing to see a player more concerned about his development and playing time than money.

 

Now if the Ogren's are men of their word ( experienced sports club owners) THEN I have no concerns as we were pre warned and this has been necessary to bring things up to standard and all is good. IF however there are signs that overspending is continuing and not following the expected "plan" then yes I will be concerned.

 

Hopefully that will answer you. Hopefully there will be more to come from the AGM too

[Derry Alli]

Dundee lose £600,000 in a year. Dundee United fans : "Ahahaha you Funsters will never learn!!"

Dundee United lose £3.7m in a year Dundee United fans : "Aye but we sacked a manager and had scaffolding put up. Great to see Funsters be financial experts though!!" 

 

[Skyline Drifter]

58 minutes ago, ArabAuslander said:

United hired a new Chief Exec, New Sporting Director in Mal Brannigan and Tony Ashgar, and got shot of David Southern. (Also remember we paid off Csaba and his backroom staff)

There was quite a big Stadium renovation during the summer, there was a lot of work done on the Eddie Thompson and (possibly Jerry Kerr). We had scaffolding on the stand for the Betfred games.

Nike's UK License holder (can't remember their name) owned the club shop and United had to buy it back - albeit again no idea on the figures for this one

United have been buying buildings in between the club shop and Tannadice to build a new Social Club.

The Ticketing system was quite a big one too. 

Obviously the loss is concerning like I said in the original post. But I'm more worried like most on here with the wage/turnover ratio, as that is chronically unsustainable, even if it is cut considerably this season it will at best be in regions of 90+%.

I think there will be a lot of people at the AGM wanting to hear Brannigan and Ogren's take on this.

Great to see Dundee fans become such great accountants - especially when it comes to debt. Great to hear of our neighbours to tell us of their experiences.

Yeah, repeating the same point with some different words doesn't make them any more valid. And I'm not a Dundee fan.

 - You will have had to pay off David Southern I expect. And Csaba and his staff, though that's not a Boardroom shake up cost. That accounts for a six figure sum for sure.

 - Stadium renovations will have been costly, especially if significant scaffolding costs were incurred (it's bloody dear to erect scaffolding for a period), but it won't have been millions.

 - I'm presuming Nike's License holder (which used to be Just Sport, no idea if it still is?) didn't own the physical building but owned the rights to trade it and this was what was bought back. It was probably capitalised as Goodwill or some other Intangible Asset. The stock purchased will have been put on the balance sheet too. It's not something written direct to the P&L account almost certainly.

 - Doesn't matter how many times you repeat the point about buying buildings, it's not chargeable to the P&L account.

 - If the Ticketing System was in any way significant you'll have capitalised it too, it won't be through the P&L account, though there may be a significant amortisation charge.

[Dee Bliss]

1 hour ago, ArabAuslander said:

United hired a new Chief Exec, New Sporting Director in Mal Brannigan and Tony Ashgar, and got shot of David Southern. (Also remember we paid off Csaba and his backroom staff)

There was quite a big Stadium renovation during the summer, there was a lot of work done on the Eddie Thompson and (possibly Jerry Kerr). We had scaffolding on the stand for the Betfred games.

Nike's UK License holder (can't remember their name) owned the club shop and United had to buy it back - albeit again no idea on the figures for this one

United have been buying buildings in between the club shop and Tannadice to build a new Social Club.

The Ticketing system was quite a big one too. 

Obviously the loss is concerning like I said in the original post. But I'm more worried like most on here with the wage/turnover ratio, as that is chronically unsustainable, even if it is cut considerably this season it will at best be in regions of 90+%.

I think there will be a lot of people at the AGM wanting to hear Brannigan and Ogren's take on this.

Great to see Dundee fans become such great accountants - especially when it comes to debt. Great to hear of our neighbours to tell us of their experiences.



 

Pish

[Doctor]

No don't you see their main striker loves the dundee and hates money

[Sarto Mutiny]

5 hours ago, Dee Man said:

Wat

Now that you've had an opportunity to scrutinise your teams finances and see that they are a one way path to oblivion, what do you intend to do about it?

The devil is in the detail, my dear

[Bigmouth Strikes Again]

1 hour ago, Doctor said:

No don't you see their main striker loves the dundee and hates money.

He's in the V&A taking notes everyday I've heard.

[Dee Man]

3 minutes ago, Sarto Mutiny said:

The devil is in the detail, my dear

I'll take that as code for 'nothing'.

[Mark Connolly]

In other news, the youth Academy has been awarded Elite status - https://www.dundeeunitedfc.co.uk/news/6281/UNITED-ACADEMY-AWARDED-ELITE-STATUS.html

That should account for at least £2.8m.

[Lancashirearab]

21 hours ago, Dirty Arab 83 said:

I expect to see all you financial experts at the next G8 summit , all of a sudden everyone and their dog is a spreadsheet whiz kid with more financial savvy than most chancellors in number 11

Our current chancellor was one of the bankers who broke the world economy and ushered in austerity to make everyone else pay for his mistakes, so there is a chance that some of the dogs will have more financial savvy than SJ.

[shawfield shed boy]

Why Scott Banks not in your 16 recently lads and lassies

[ArabianKnight]

1 hour ago, shawfield shed boy said:

Why Scott Banks not in your 16 recently lads and lassies

Apparently getting iced out as agent is demanding more money for him. 

What's actually happening though no one knows for sure. 

[arab_joe]

20 hours ago, Yenitit said:

You’d think the rest of your kind would be thinking along those lines. 

Hopefully the AGM explains some of the more worrying figures in the news reports... if it doesn't then I suspect a lot of Arabs will start asking questions.

19 hours ago, virginton said:

The usual financial recklessness of Scottish football has been turned up several notches at this level in the past couple of years and will only end with another round of administrations. 

The Championship is an interesting juxtaposition of clubs run spectacularly well and punching well above their weight (Ayr, Alloa, Arbroath etc.); and those clubs that seem to be throwing far too much money at undeserving players (Dundee, Inverness, United etc.).  You would have thought that United might have learnt from the previous attempts that we made to "split the Old Firm" in the 1990s (see Alex Mathie...) and are basically still paying off.

19 hours ago, senorsoupe said:

That sort of spending on the expectation of on-pitch results has ended in tears for other teams in the past (see Leeds).

Leeds are my English side, as it happens, so have seen a lot of this nonsense from closer quarters than I might like.  I was actually at the Malaga game at Elland Road in December 2002 - little did I know that that would be the last European game that they would play for 17 years (and counting...). 

Here's hoping that Ogren has a far better mid-to-long term vision that Ridsdale did...

17 hours ago, Tannadeechee said:

I'll say it again no one who was at the Q&A before the end of last season will be surprised Mark Ogren said the results that would be out later this year, meaning those just released would be bad, but to not worry. It was all planned long term. 

Now if the Ogren's are men of their word ( experienced sports club owners) THEN I have no concerns as we were pre warned and this has been necessary to bring things up to standard and all is good. IF however there are signs that overspending is continuing and not following the expected "plan" then yes I will be concerned.

Being told not to worry is all very well, but the reality is that the accounts just released are an absolute car crash; we are losing more in the Championship than would be acceptable at the top end of the Premiership.

Are the Ogrens really that experienced at owning sports clubs?  From the very limited amount of information available about him online, his teams are not exactly huge institutions: 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sioux_Falls_Stampede (junior ice hockey team)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sioux_Falls_Canaries (professional baseball team that has no connection to MLB)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mankato_MoonDogs (amateur baseball team)

39 minutes ago, shawfield shed boy said:

Why Scott Banks not in your 16 recently lads and lassies

We are keeping him fit to sell him for millions in January... all part of the masterplan!

[senorsoupe]

1 hour ago, arab_joe said:

 

We are keeping him fit to sell him for millions in January... all part of the masterplan!

 

[Granny Danger]

3 hours ago, ArabianKnight said:

Apparently getting iced out as agent is demanding more money for him. 

What's actually happening though no one knows for sure. 

That seems to be the informed opinion.  Sad if true, he was a stand out pre-season; the sort of player you’re happy to pay to watch and who looked like he had great potential.