Dundee United 2019/2020

[Derry Alli]

Who was the £1.4m in sell on fees from that stopped you 'investing' £1.6m the season prior?

[Aufc]

Hopefully the end of this perma-failure establishment-backed spunk stain of a football club

This would be an acceptable comment had it come from a supporter of a proper football club and not from someone who supports a bunch of northern hillbillies.

[Sarto Mutiny]

As always, it's funny that the comments about the accounts are coming mainly from fans who didn't appear to see the financial problems at their own clubs coming. If only you had scrutinised the accounts at your own clubs quite so vigorously, eh lads?

Still. We'll get a bit of context after the AGM, I hope. The wage bill is more of a worry for me than the losses, as strange as it may seem. The losses are a better story because they are so massive, but they can largely be explained away by one off payments, infrastructure improvements, and the like. I'd be very interested to hear the logic of having a wage bill of over 130% of turnover. That's the timebomb. This whiffs a bit of Melville to me. If you trust Ogren, then fine. It's not a problem as long as he's here and willing to underwrite these wages. However...

[Alert Mongoose]

I’ve not looked at the accounts but I would have expected some of the infrastructure to have been capitalised and therefore not included in the loss.

[Derry Alli]

30 minutes ago, Sarto Mutiny said:

As always, it's funny that the comments about the accounts are coming mainly from fans who didn't appear to see the financial problems at their own clubs coming. If only you had scrutinised the accounts at your own clubs quite so vigorously, eh lads?

Classic whataboutery. 

[Dirty Arab 83]

[emoji16][emoji16] I expect to see all you financial experts at the next G8 summit , all of a sudden everyone and their dog is a spreadsheet whiz kid with more financial savvy than most chancellors in number 11 [emoji16][emoji16]

[Mark Connolly]

1 hour ago, Alert Mongoose said:

I’ve not looked at the accounts but I would have expected some of the inFRAstruCTUre to have been capitalised and therefore not included in the loss.

Something along those lines?

 

 

 

 

 

[arab_joe]

On 27/10/2019 at 15:33, invergowrie arab said:

I still dont understand where any supposed future profit comes in.

This has been my concern all along.  I just have no idea what due diligence Ogren did to come to the conclusion that DUFC would be a profitable venture!

On 27/10/2019 at 15:41, Zetterlund said:

Didn't Ogren or Asghar pretty openly say the model is based on developing and selling talented young players?

If that's his plan then why are we signing so many over-paid players in their late 20s/early 30s?

On 27/10/2019 at 19:06, Tannadeechee said:

I'm suprised at the level of angst here. Now I'm not sticking my head in the sand and I am concerned that they haven't done their sums properly, but that article is full of half truths and innuendo.

Are you?  I'm pretty concerned that we have a Chairman that would allow us to run at such a loss.  He would hardly be the first to have ploughed a load of cash in, got bored, then left the club in a terrible state.

10 hours ago, MeadowArab said:

Also, since Shankland isn't the highest paid player, who is? Reynolds, Clark, Butcher, Pawlett, or Harkes perhaps?

Shankland isn't the highest paid?  That is criminal if true.

3 hours ago, Dele said:

Who was the £1.4m in sell on fees from that stopped you 'investing' £1.6m the season prior?

Robertson.

1 hour ago, Sarto Mutiny said:

I'd be very interested to hear the logic of having a wage bill of over 130% of turnover. 

You're not the only one!

14 minutes ago, Dirty Arab 83 said:

I expect to see all you financial experts at the next G8 summit , all of a sudden everyone and their dog is a spreadsheet whiz kid with more financial savvy than most chancellors in number 11

It doesn't take a degree in accountancy to know that a business losing £3,700,000 in a year is totally unsustainable unless you know you are getting a very, very big pay day soon...

[killie_lad]

I get that you're trying to explain the problems away but 133% of you income on wages is utter, utter madness

A lot of the money spent includes the mass overhaul of players in January (that most were still on the books in to June/July) - we had 34 first team players on the books at one stage.

There's also been a  lot of "one-off payments" gone on: Boardroom shake-up, Mass Hiring of Coaches for Project Brave, Stadium Renovation, Buying Back the Club Shop from Nike, Buying the adjacent buildings to the GA Arena, and I believe extending the lease on St Andrews. Which probably adds up to well in to the seven figure range.
I think next season's account (which ever league we're in) will show a more balanced set of figures.
However, £3.7m is still a very worrying loss and is a cause for concern. Hopefully we can deliver on the pitch and end up in the Premiership for 20-21 (which will be worth £2.5m due to a new TV deal) and the finances will be in a much better place this time next year.

Also: Dundee Fans have some Brass Neck

EDIT: Forgot to mention the ticketing system as well which would have been at least £200k.

[Derry Alli]

I've no idea how I missed @ArabAuslander's post. That's an absolute beauty.

Lose nearly £1.7m one year (luckily Robertson was sold so actually only lost £200,000) and then spunk £3.7m the following 12months but it's OK. Bought the shop back from Nike n that, ken? 

Jeepers. 

[Sir Tarmo Kink]

This would be an acceptable comment had it come from a supporter of a proper football club and not from someone who supports a bunch of northern hillbillies.

This would be an acceptable comment had it come from a supporter of one football club and not from someone who supports two teams.

[gannonball]

12 hours ago, ArabAuslander said:

A lot of the money spent includes the mass overhaul of players in January (that most were still on the books in to June/July) - we had 34 first team players on the books at one stage.

There's also been a  lot of "one-off payments" gone on: Boardroom shake-up, Mass Hiring of Coaches for Project Brave, Stadium Renovation, Buying Back the Club Shop from Nike, Buying the adjacent buildings to the GA Arena, and I believe extending the lease on St Andrews. Which probably adds up to well in to the seven figure range.

I think next season's account (which ever league we're in) will show a more balanced set of figures.

However, £3.7m is still a very worrying loss and is a cause for concern. Hopefully we can deliver on the pitch and end up in the Premiership for 20-21 (which will be worth £2.5m due to a new TV deal) and the finances will be in a much better place this time next year.

Also: Dundee Fans have some Brass Neck

EDIT: Forgot to mention the ticketing system as well which would have been at least £200k.

 

1 hour ago, Dele said:

I've no idea how I missed @ArabAuslander's post. That's an absolute beauty.

Lose nearly £1.7m one year (luckily Robertson was sold so actually only lost £200,000) and then spunk £3.7m the following 12months but it's OK. Bought the shop back from Nike n that, ken? 

Jeepers. 

Utter Nonsense. He is pointing out that a lot of money expended in one financial year has been spent on saving money and making profit on other avenues in the long term.

The wages is still alarming however.

[Skyline Drifter]

12 hours ago, ArabAuslander said:

A lot of the money spent includes the mass overhaul of players in January (that most were still on the books in to June/July) - we had 34 first team players on the books at one stage.

There's also been a  lot of "one-off payments" gone on: Boardroom shake-up, Mass Hiring of Coaches for Project Brave, Stadium Renovation, Buying Back the Club Shop from Nike, Buying the adjacent buildings to the GA Arena, and I believe extending the lease on St Andrews. Which probably adds up to well in to the seven figure range.

I think next season's account (which ever league we're in) will show a more balanced set of figures.

However, £3.7m is still a very worrying loss and is a cause for concern. Hopefully we can deliver on the pitch and end up in the Premiership for 20-21 (which will be worth £2.5m due to a new TV deal) and the finances will be in a much better place this time next year.

Also: Dundee Fans have some Brass Neck

EDIT: Forgot to mention the ticketing system as well which would have been at least £200k.

Some, but not a massive amount, of merit in that I suspect.

 - How does a 'Boardroom Shake Up" cost the club money? Were some of the departed Directors salaried and needed paying off?

 - Coaches for Project Brave. Yes, I expect that increased salary costs, though not by hundreds of thousands. Actually other compliance costs with Project Brave were probably more costly.

 - Stadium Renovation. Yep, give you that one, it will be a P&L item. I don;t know Tannadice well enough, would there have been massive renovation / repair work on it last season?

- Buying back the club shop? If they had to physically buy back the club shop, it's likely this is a capital payment and not charged directly to the P&L (though there would be a depreciation / amortisation charge for it).

 - Buying Buildings. Certainly won't be charged to the Profit and loss account, though again it would lead to an increased depreciation charge.

 - Extending a lease - That just leads to additional future commitments. It's unlikely to have any current year profit and loss relevance.

I don't think much of what you've said there equates to a big part of a £3.7m loss. Depends how much "renovation" was done I suppose but it's unlikely to be more than a few hundred thousand of it at most. It's pretty clear the majority of that loss is generated by payroll costs.

[Robin.Hood]

[emoji16][emoji16] I expect to see all you financial experts at the next G8 summit , all of a sudden everyone and their dog is a spreadsheet whiz kid with more financial savvy than most chancellors in number 11 [emoji16][emoji16]

I dont have a dog. :-(

[Derry Alli]

47 minutes ago, gannonball said:

Utter Nonsense. He is pointing out that a lot of money expended in one financial year has been spent on saving money and making profit on other avenues in the long term.

He hasn't pointed anything out. He's speculating - wildly - that that's the case. 

It was only a few years ago that these very fans were celebrating the club being 'debt free' after selling off its assets. There are now some saying "it's only that amount because we bought the buildings back". 

[Dee Bliss]

5 hours ago, Sarto Mutiny said:

As always, it's funny that the comments about the accounts are coming mainly from fans who didn't appear to see the financial problems at their own clubs coming. If only you had scrutinised the accounts at your own clubs quite so vigorously, eh lads?

Still. We'll get a bit of context after the AGM, I hope. The wage bill is more of a worry for me than the losses, as strange as it may seem. The losses are a better story because they are so massive, but they can largely be explained away by one off payments, infrastructure improvements, and the like. I'd be very interested to hear the logic of having a wage bill of over 130% of turnover. That's the timebomb. This whiffs a bit of Melville to me. If you trust Ogren, then fine. It's not a problem as long as he's here and willing to underwrite these wages. However...

Of course the Dundee fans could see impending doom financially.  Like your good self there isn’t much you can do to stop it but you do need to be there when doomsday comes and bail the club out like every Derryboy and girl did. 
 

Thank you. 

[Dee Bliss]

3 hours ago, arab_joe said:

This has been my concern all along.  I just have no idea what due diligence Ogren did to come to the conclusion that DUFC would be a profitable venture!

If that's his plan then why are we signing so many over-paid players in their late 20s/early 30s?

Are you?  I'm pretty concerned that we have a Chairman that would allow us to run at such a loss.  He would hardly be the first to have ploughed a load of cash in, got bored, then left the club in a terrible state.

Shankland isn't the highest paid?  That is criminal if true.

Robertson.

You're not the only one!

It doesn't take a degree in accountancy to know that a business losing £3,700,000 in a year is totally unsustainable unless you know you are getting a very, very big pay day soon...

You’re far too sensible Joe to be an Arab! You’d think the rest of your kind would be thinking along those lines. 

[flyingscot]

The merits or otherwise in 'one off costs' etc is one thing but £4.1m on salaries and 133% wages/turnover is madness. I doubt it is even needed to keep a bottom 6 Premiership team up never mind to get out of the Championship! 

[Dee Man]

6 hours ago, Sarto Mutiny said:

As always, it's funny that the comments about the accounts are coming mainly from fans who didn't appear to see the financial problems at their own clubs coming. If only you had scrutinised the accounts at your own clubs quite so vigorously, eh lads?

Wat

Now that you've had an opportunity to scrutinise your teams finances and see that they are a one way path to oblivion, what do you intend to do about it?

[vikingTON]

1 hour ago, flyingscot said:

The merits or otherwise in 'one off costs' etc is one thing but £4.1m on salaries and 133% wages/turnover is madness. I doubt it is even needed to keep a bottom 6 Premiership team up never mind to get out of the Championship! 

Those are indeed the key figures that confirm financial doping on an outrageous level.

An £800k loss for the play off semifinalists last season; £3.7 million loss for the finalists. The usual financial recklessness of Scottish football has been turned up several notches at this level in the past couple of years and will only end with another round of administrations. 

Edited October 29, 2019 by vikingTON