A postive case for the union

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

Really?
I can't wait to hear your plan of how we are going to force the US, China and India to simply bend over and give us a trade deal.

By joining the EU.

[dirty dingus]

[Antlion]

13 hours ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

See this point about a shared culture, what cultural things do we share with England besides football violence and fish and chips that we couldnt have without independence?

It might be worth asking English, Welsh, and Northern Irish people which Scottish cultural traditions they share. We know that the English Parliament  took on zero Scottish traditions (yet continued to operate as the English Parliament always had, and still uses pre-union precedents), but did the populace embrace any specific elements of our culture?

[Kuro]

3 hours ago, ThatBoyRonaldo said:

I don't think there's really a 'positive case for the union' other than the usual misty-eyed history stuff, but the negative one, which is that the rump UK will be as obstructive as possible (CF Brexit) will make things awkward.

The brexit negotiations pretty much confirm that you can't expect the UK to act rationally in the event of independence, particularly when led by some hard right government in hock to the DUP and the tabloids.

There's two key differences.  One, there is a very clear process and precedent for becoming independent (51 countries have left British control since WWII) and international law is very unambiguous on this. No country has ever left the EU before.

 Two, by joining the EU we will being the big boys club that is calling all the shots.

[Dan Steele]

6 hours ago, oaksoft said:

Meanwhile in the real world away from all the gallus bullshit and the shortbread nationalism, some of the actual problems an Independent Scotland, which would take years and in some cases decades to resolve would face include:-

1) As welshbairn said above, replicating all the laws and legislation which currently reside in UK law. Simply casually dismissing that isn't on.

2) Re-negotiating trade deals with other nations. Even the UK haven't got the US, India or China on board yet for Brexit. Scotland would face much tougher negotiations.

3) The EU question would need resolving which would have serious implications on all of the above PLUS our relationship with rUK.

4) Setting up and running various public bodies and government ministries.

5) Setting up and funding a bank of last resort.

6) Setting up immigration and defence policies.

As a small country we would be in a very weak position in all negotiations regarding trade or international treaties leaving us at a very high risk of potentially being forced to accept poorer deals than we would as part of the UK or having to rely on WTC rules.

Anyone who thinks this lot would take anything other than many many years to sort out is kidding themselves. Independence is going to be a fucking mess for some time. Whether you are Yes or No you need to face up to this.

 

Oh for goodness sake, are you really saying that "actual problems" is a barrier to a country becoming independent? Of course it would be challenging, nobody disputes that. 

[AUFC90]

There's literally no problems with remaining part of the UK though. Absolutely none at all.

[Tibbermoresaint]

1 minute ago, oaksoft said:

Where did I say Scotland couldn 't be successful?

If you're not going to bother reading my post, don't bother responding.

Is that it? Is that all you've got?

[Tibbermoresaint]

2 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

Until you post a response that suggests you've taken the time to read what I posted? Yes.

I read your post. It was drivel from beginning to end and I responded accordingly.

[welshbairn]

8 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

 

Would we have to agree to full freedom of movement?

 

Of course we would, our economy depends on it and the single market demands it. That's about the daftest question I've heard from you. Of course to satisfy the doubtful we could actually enforce the restrictions the EU allows and Westminster thinks would be a waste of money putting into effect.

[Tibbermoresaint]

13 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

I'm not saying Scotland can't be independent or successful.

I'm saying that if we stay in the UK we don't have to ovedont rcome these barriers with their inherent risks.

These barriers don't have risks, only opportunities.

[Tartan Tammy 1297]

15 hours ago, oaksoft said:

Meanwhile in the real world away from all the gallus bullshit and the shortbread nationalism, some of the actual problems an Independent Scotland, which would take years and in some cases decades to resolve would face include:-

1) As welshbairn said above, replicating all the laws and legislation which currently reside in UK law. Simply casually dismissing that isn't on.

2) Re-negotiating trade deals with other nations. Even the UK haven't got the US, India or China on board yet for Brexit. Scotland would face much tougher negotiations.

3) The EU question would need resolving which would have serious implications on all of the above PLUS our relationship with rUK.

4) Setting up and running various public bodies and government ministries.

5) Setting up and funding a bank of last resort.

6) Setting up immigration and defence policies.

As a small country we would be in a very weak position in all negotiations regarding trade or international treaties leaving us at a very high risk of potentially being forced to accept poorer deals than we would as part of the UK or having to rely on WTC rules.

Anyone who thinks this lot would take anything other than many many years to sort out is kidding themselves. Independence is going to be a fucking mess for some time. Whether you are Yes or No you need to face up to this.

 

Commonwealth is and was set up for trade

If we are still in the commonwealth our goods will still be valuble and wanted

So the Bank of England wont still be the bank off last resort?Other nations use it with there currency pegged to the pound

Even Better Together eventually admitted there would have been a currency union cos it affects them to

All the rest is pretty doabble and should not be a issue as every other less rich nations have managed it without teething problems 

[Kuro]

Scotland wants full freedom of movement, we voted 62% remain, and support for remain is now polling at a whopping 72%.  Support for full EU membership in Scotland is absolutely overwhelming, there has never been anything in political history except the NHS with as universal support as EU membership.

[Tartan Tammy 1297]

4 hours ago, oaksoft said:

What would our currency be?

Would we have to agree to full freedom of movement?

Also, what will be the consequences regarding our border with rUK as a result of all this stuff?

And how long will all of this take?

About same time or less as in former Czechoslovakia border depends on if we choose to be in EU or not

 

[welshbairn]

13 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

Just answering the question sufficed. No need for the add-ons.

You're either even thicker than I thought or you've somehow been in a coma and not realised that freedom of movement is a condition of membership of the single market, and thus the EU. The only alternative is you're a particularly boring troll.

Edited May 11, 2019 by welshbairn

[jakedee]

So, nobody wants to make an estimate of how long it will take for all these trade deals, EU membership and legislative hurdles to be overcome?

Trade deals will be continued with membership of the EU, which will be done quickly, as stated by prominent EU members. Legislative hurdles will be up to how awkward Westminster wants to be. Looking at how the EU have stood behind Ireland during the Brexit negotiations, rUK would be cutting their nose off if they put too many obstacles in place. Then again they do have a history.

[Tibbermoresaint]

10 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

What on earth is this wittering nonsense?

Is this you trying to demonstrate that you are now reading posts before responding?

You had to edit this drivel?

[Tibbermoresaint]

3 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

What does "quickly" mean?

The point of all this discussion is that we cannot blindly assume things will go as we want.

If Yes intends to convert floating No voters there's going to have to be some honesty and a bit less assuming about things like this. People are not going to risk their mortgages on arguments like this IMO.

in what way will people be "risking their mortgages"?

[Kuro]

Just now, Tibbermoresaint said:

in what way will people be "risking their mortgages"?

Please don't quote this idiot.  As it happens, there is no risk whatsoever of Scotland, if it chooses independence, being out of the EU for even a second.  Same as there wasn't last time, this is just tired old project fear nonsense.  Accession would be instant, there is no queue, we are already members, we voted to stay, they want us to stay.  We would not have to leave and rejoin or go through any application process.  

[Kuro]

1 minute ago, MixuFixit said:

Optimistic: 5 years

Realistic: 10 years

Pessimistic: 15 years

Something like that.

Nope. reality 0 years, 0 months, 0 weeks, 0 days, 0 minutes.

[jakedee]

What does "quickly" mean?
The point of all this discussion is that we cannot blindly assume things will go as we want.
If Yes intends to convert floating No voters there's going to have to be some honesty and a bit less assuming about things like this. People are not going to risk their mortgages on arguments like this IMO.

Quickly means not slowly, there has never been a Country, which has all the requirements in place applying to join, so an accurate timescale cannot be predicted. Safe to say it will not be 11 years. As for risking mortgages, you'll have to explain that one.