A postive case for the union

[Glenanover]

14 hours ago, Malky3 said:

Ok - well here's a challenge for you. 

Public Services - can you tell me how Scottish Independence would improve these services especially given that we know the Barnett Formula gives the Scottish Government £13Bn more than Scotland raises in tax revenues currently and that this would stop in the event of Scotland ceasing to be part of the United Kingdom.

Captalist System - Can you tell me, with credibility, how Scottish Independence would change the "system" we have. The SNP's best attempt at outlining a future for an Independent Scotland showed we would simply retain everything we had and live off massive tax revenues from the North Sea that never transpired. 

Homelessness - Go on then. Tell me, with the Scottish Government failing and our local authorities lacking the cash, and probably the desire, to end homelessness, what would an Independent Scotland do to fix the problem especially when they will need to find £13Bn of austerity cuts. 

Foodbanks - Again tell me your solution in an Independent Scotland. What would you expect the SNP to do that it isn't currently doing and how would it fund it? We could ofcourse stop foodbanks tomorrow simply by refusing to donate to them. That would eradicate food banks - but I don't think that would make Scotland a better society. 

It would be £13Bn per annum worse than this. I'm not saying that money is the only solution. Maybe there would be a golden ticket in building a new country with a new set of values and a new way of running public services. I just don't see anything from the Nationalists that offer any encouragement. Christ Lesley Riddoch, what apparently was "delivering a telt" to the panel on an STV programme the other night wrote off pensions as "nothing to write home about" as those Scottish pensioners wouldn't miss it. 

 

 

[Pet Jeden]

4 minutes ago, hearthammer said:

1. Negatori

2. Negatori.  Yes, have strong affections for Belgium through numerous visits.

3. You're a prophet of doom for Scotland

4. Your nappy needs changing by the proverbial smell emanating from your posts.

Now f*ck off as i'm watching other grown ups playing rugby.  Back to your playdough (remember your bib for your slavers).

Cho now 

There's only one point in that bucket of sick that needs to be fished out and inspected. Show me even one example of where I have been a prophet of doom re Scotland.

[hearthammer]

29 minutes ago, Glenanover said:

What a patronising p***k you are.

Amazed you can read any posts through your puffy, tear-stained eyes.  Now, like your wee creche pal jettison, f*ck off while the grown ups watch the rugby.  Back to your croquet, oh petit pleurer 

[Glenanover]

6 minutes ago, hearthammer said:

Amazed you can read any posts through your puffy, tear-stained eyes.  Now, like your wee creche pal jettison, f*ck off while the grown ups watch the rugby.  Back to your croquet, oh petit pleurer 

You grown up ?  

With your childish made up names.

f**k off

[Pet Jeden]

6 hours ago, hearthammer said:

Amazed you can read any posts through your puffy, tear-stained eyes.  Now, like your wee creche pal jettison, f*ck off while the grown ups watch the rugby.  Back to your croquet, oh petit pleurer 

What’s with all the rugby references? Do you find yourself often thinking about big, sweaty muscle men in tight shorts?

[DublinMagyar]

What’s with all the rugby references? Do you find yourself often thinking about big, sweaty muscle men in tight shorts?

So what if he does?

Are you a homophobe?

[Joey Jo Jo Junior Shabadoo]

6 minutes ago, Pet Jeden said:

What’s with all the rugby references? Do you find yourself often thinking about big, sweaty muscle men in tight shorts?

Wid.

[hearthammer]

Just now, Pet Jeden said:

What’s with all the rugby references? Do you find yourself often thinking about big, sweaty muscle men in tight shorts?

No, it's the Rugby World Cup that's on.  I'm a sports fan and enjoy rugby as well as football.

I understand everyone, including you, needs a hobby, so you obviously put a lot of thought into taking what's in your mind to transferring the images to script.  I hope you meet your dream hooker soon because it'll maybe go some way to stop you being a flanker all your life.   

[hearthammer]

4 minutes ago, DublinMagyar said:

So what if he does?

Are you a homophobe?

I don't and he obviously is - and more.

[hearthammer]

3 minutes ago, Joey Jo Jo Junior Shabadoo said:

Wid.

[Malky3]

6 hours ago, renton said:

To make a positive case for the Union you need more than just a laundry list of things that happened. You need to demonstrate that those events represent some optimal outcome, preferably an outcome that an independent Scotland would not have been able to achieve by itself.

So when I speculate as to how an Indy Scotland would've behaved it's to demonstrate that many other outcomes existed. That speculation is based on the actual experience of other nations, for example, Norway and it's oil fund. 

If you can't demonstrate that the UK handling of the same situation was better, if you can't show why having access to UK diplomats is better, if you can't make a case for why an incorporating over a federal Union, or even just a free trade agreement is better for Scottish trade then you haven't made a positive case for the Union.

I disagree strongly, obviously. 

My points for the Union are based in reality. We are where we are because that is the reality we've been living. You are speculating that an Independent Scotland *could* have done better if our political leaders had been capable of using time travel. 

I'm realistic enough to know that the Union hasn't delivered the optimum outcome for Scotland, but I'm also extremely aware that there is no foundation what so ever to claims that Scotlands political leaders over the last five decades would have done any better. 

Anyway I have had my go of outlining a positive case for the Union. Over to you - care to make the positive case for an Independent Scotland in the future showing how Scotland can raise revenues to cover the £13bn required just to keep things as we have them just now. 

 

[Father Ted]

Aye you are.

Like most unionists. You hold Scottish Gov to intense microscopic scrutiny and let Westminster away with gross mismanagement.

I would maybe take your arguments, points, etc more seriously if you were as in depth with Westminster, but you don't and for me, that undermines everything you post.

Your union is f**ked Malky get used to it. The very protectors of it, are destroying it

[Malky3]

7 minutes ago, Father Ted said:

Aye you are.

Like most unionists. You hold Scottish Gov to intense microscopic scrutiny and let Westminster away with gross mismanagement.

I would maybe take your arguments, points, etc more seriously if you were as in depth with Westminster, but you don't and for me, that undermines everything you post.

Your union is f**ked Malky get used to it. The very protectors of it, are destroying it
 

Here's the thing - as I've said many times before. I have lived in the UK all my life. I work in Scotland for an English company. I earn a decent wage and I have quite a comfortable lifestyle. My kids too have grown up in the UK. I don't think their education was good, despite them attending one of the supposed top 20 public sector schools in the country, but where the schools let them down we paid for extra tuition and got them through their exams. Today they are all in good jobs earning good wages, enjoying a decent standard of living. 

I don't think my family is unique in Scotland. One of steady improvement in our standard of living and level of wealth throughout the generations. The UK has worked for me. 

So to change I need proof that what you want to sell me is better than what I have today. If you can't do it then f**k off and leave me alone cause I'm not interested in any political scheme that makes me or my kids worse off. I'll vote against that kind of change every day of the week - and I'm sure that's why the majority of Scots voted No thanks in exactly the same way I did. 

It's not about emotion, flag waving and face painting. This is about peoples livelihoods, and about their futures and that of their kids. If the Nationalists can't make a positive case for Scottish Independence then they should scrap the campaign for Indy Ref 2 cause we aren't going to vote for radical and damaging change just cause there's a bit of chaos in Westminster currently. 

[Glenanover]

44 minutes ago, Malky3 said:

Here's the thing - as I've said many times before. I have lived in the UK all my life. I work in Scotland for an English company. I earn a decent wage and I have quite a comfortable lifestyle. My kids too have grown up in the UK. I don't think their education was good, despite them attending one of the supposed top 20 public sector schools in the country, but where the schools let them down we paid for extra tuition and got them through their exams. Today they are all in good jobs earning good wages, enjoying a decent standard of living. 

I don't think my family is unique in Scotland. One of steady improvement in our standard of living and level of wealth throughout the generations. The UK has worked for me. 

So to change I need proof that what you want to sell me is better than what I have today. If you can't do it then f**k off and leave me alone cause I'm not interested in any political scheme that makes me or my kids worse off. I'll vote against that kind of change every day of the week - and I'm sure that's why the majority of Scots voted No thanks in exactly the same way I did. 

It's not about emotion, flag waving and face painting. This is about peoples livelihoods, and about their futures and that of their kids. If the Nationalists can't make a positive case for Scottish Independence then they should scrap the campaign for Indy Ref 2 cause we aren't going to vote for radical and damaging change just cause there's a bit of chaos in Westminster currently. 

Brilliantly put. 

[Father Ted]

Here's the thing - as I've said many times before. I have lived in the UK all my life. I work in Scotland for an English company. I earn a decent wage and I have quite a comfortable lifestyle. My kids too have grown up in the UK. I don't think their education was good, despite them attending one of the supposed top 20 public sector schools in the country, but where the schools let them down we paid for extra tuition and got them through their exams. Today they are all in good jobs earning good wages, enjoying a decent standard of living. 
I don't think my family is unique in Scotland. One of steady improvement in our standard of living and level of wealth throughout the generations. The UK has worked for me. 
So to change I need proof that what you want to sell me is better than what I have today. If you can't do it then f**k off and leave me alone cause I'm not interested in any political scheme that makes me or my kids worse off. I'll vote against that kind of change every day of the week - and I'm sure that's why the majority of Scots voted No thanks in exactly the same way I did. 
It's not about emotion, flag waving and face painting. This is about peoples livelihoods, and about their futures and that of their kids. If the Nationalists can't make a positive case for Scottish Independence then they should scrap the campaign for Indy Ref 2 cause we aren't going to vote for radical and damaging change just cause there's a bit of chaos in Westminster currently. 

Well the wheels are about to fall off your beloved UK.

I don't have to prove anything to you, you either get it or you don't.

Self interest is what has brought us to this scenario and as you've admitted on more than one occasion that's where you come from.

Which incidentally makes you part of the problem.

Most countries run at a deficit and considering what Scotland brings to the table, borrowing in short to medium term will not be an issue.

Your 13bn mantra is tiresome and without credence.

The fact you think Westminster is doing such a fine job undermines everything you say. Yes you might be doing ok but there are millions that aren't

I would like to be in the trenches with someone of your mindset.

I'm done, your like a cat chasing your tail.

Goodnight

[Malky3]

10 minutes ago, Father Ted said:

Well the wheels are about to fall off your beloved UK.

I don't have to prove anything to you, you either get it or you don't.

Self interest is what has brought us to this scenario and as you've admitted on more than one occasion that's where you come from.

Which incidentally makes you part of the problem.

Most countries run at a deficit and considering what Scotland brings to the table, borrowing in short to medium term will not be an issue.

Your 13bn mantra is tiresome and without credence.

The fact you think Westminster is doing such a fine job undermines everything you say. Yes you might be doing ok but there are millions that aren't

I would like to be in the trenches with someone of your mindset.

I'm done, your like a cat chasing your tail.

Goodnight

The fact that you wish that on us all just so you can claim a much worse situation in an Independent Scotland might be less worse than what it might be in the UK speaks volumes about the kind of person you are. Sadly I also don't think you are unique amongst the Nationalist movement. It's YOUR self interest in YOUR persuit of Independence that sees you want us all to be worse off financially with damaged futures and a diminished level of opportunity for our future generations. 

I wish the Nationalists could present a case that said "We acknowledge that Scots are comfortably off living in the UK - let us show how we can make things better still". But no, instead its more a case of "Ha, ha - our comfortable lives are going to go to shit so you better vote for Scottish independence  just so we can f**k up the English some more" 

[Father Ted]

I don't wish anything on anyone. Stop making accusations with no foundation.

I don't have any problem with the English or any nationality. I do feel sorry for them, as at least we have a way out.

However, if independence does happen I would welcome them with open arms, and I could foresee a situation where they will be coming on masse. As Westminster is broken and the continuation of their "policies".

Britain is fucked, sooner you accept it the better. Your pals down in Westminster can't help themselves. There is no collective that can reverse their plans, and they cannot help themselves.

You know f**k all about me. Whereas you are the "me, myself and I" brigade.

You are tedious, ill informed and self centred.

Try seeking attention elsewhere, I'm not wasting anymore time on someone stuck in a loop, defending the indefensible.

[DA Baracus]

The attempts at smearing the independence movement as anti English have never worked. That's because the independence movement has never been anti English. There are some fannies who will be, like in any movement, but they are very much a tiny minority and not at all representative.

The independence movement has never produced campaign materials that are racist or could be construed or even twisted to be racist, unlike scum like UKIP and the Conservatives.

It's all just a very sad attempt by those opposed to independence. What's even sadder is how easy its been for folk with a comically obvious vested interest in the Conservatives and Labour to convince some people that supporters of independence are some mad rabid anti English racists.

It's sad and it's desperate, and indicative of the pathetic death throes of a dying empire who are trying to cling to their exploitative abuse of politics for their own gain. That they've managed to convince so many who they exploit to be on their side is pretty astonishing, pretty amusing and very depressing.

[DA Baracus]

There's loads of English folk living in Scotland. Most folk will know someone who is English. My brother in law is English. I don't think of him as 'that English guy'. I don't even think of his nationality. I just think of him as his name.

The attempt to smear the independence movement as anti English is sad and insulting, but so sad, desperate, pathetic and utterly baseless that its really easy to laugh off.

Only the most excruciatingly thick actually believe it. Plenty of sad anti independence folk will mindlessly regurgitate it without truly believing it, but plenty will believe it. They truly are dreadfully stupid people with a diseased soul.

[Joey Jo Jo Junior Shabadoo]

"Nats" (allegedly) wish the UK to be poorer. The English actually vote for it.