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1 minute ago, WATTOO said:

Two large leagues is what we used to have and then it became three smaller leagues and then it became four smaller leagues.

Everything is just going full circle as it always does............

I wouldn't have the top 2 leagues as big as 18 teams personally. 14 with a view of increasing to 16 teams imo.

You're right about it going full circle though and I can see some of the elite Clubs from the big leagues (EPL, La Liga etc) calling for smaller leagues in a bid to chase more revenue using the "best v best" argument.

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A hideous idea. Not just the 'colts' pish, but all of it.

Get the extended leagues to f**k. It's not perfect as it is now, but it works pretty well, and until something better is proposed, we should stick with it.

What is being proposed is not better. It would massively ramp up meaningless games, when at the moment things can be quite exciting given the playoffs at both ends of the table. More clubs in the leagues means less will be involved in the race for the playoffs. 

Simply increasing the league won't suddenly make more full time teams. Not sure why anyone thinks there is any issue with a team being part time anyway. The third tier would see some hidings, given the top second tier teams just now would regularly dick dross like Albion, Berwick and Cowdenbeath. You'll also see teams playing each other more, given how seedings work the cups, meaning that teams from this proposed third tier will regularly be drawn together, resulting in them just playing the same games over and over. 

44 games in the second tier is staggeringly stupid. The amount of midweek games will increase, and fixture pile ups will be much more likely, especially given the commitments to the cup competitions. That won't help player development. It's not really going to see much, if any, of an increase in revenue for clubs, given that they will have to play a midweek fixture with lower crowds, with the costs that come with doing so (stewards, police, catering etc). Some clubs might make more money this way, but others won't. Will it increase the season (how long it runs)? If so then clubs will be having to outlay more cash for contracts, quickly eating in to any perceived extra profits. It might also drive down wages, which doesn't strengthen anyone and may result in more dross across the leagues.

If this is supposed to be about player development (it's not, but lets look at that argument) then it seems like it will do the opposite of helping players. It will give them a longer season potentially, risking injury to the players and burning them out. It will have them playing the same teams over and over, which will not help them get new experiences and won't help them learn and progress. Teams will have less chance of promotion, so a player will have less chance to move up and play against better teams. The number of meaningless games will increase hugely, which again will not be beneficial to player development (do you need this one explained?). 

 

However, this is all just about two teams, as it always is. The transparent bribe of 'no relegation' next season is laughable, and surely no one will fall for it. The top two teams in League 1 getting automatic promotion means doing away with the playoffs, with no mention of it there will then be playoffs in the proposed new structure. If not then my point about meaningless game, and all the associated points, is even more in focus and even more relevant.

 

Just get this so far to fucking f**k.

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10 minutes ago, sjc said:

I wouldn't have the top 2 leagues as big as 18 teams personally. 14 with a view of increasing to 16 teams imo.

You're right about it going full circle though and I can see some of the elite Clubs from the big leagues (EPL, La Liga etc) calling for smaller leagues in a bid to chase more revenue using the "best v best" argument.

I'm a great believer in nothing much changes, despite all the rhetoric that we're fed. (and I don't just mean football).

Here's a link from the 1960 - 61 season and apart from a grim time down at Cappielow and Celtic not at their best, there's not really that much difference in the standings from then to now.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1960–61_in_Scottish_football

Every decade or so, some bright spark comes up with an "original" idea which will solve all our problems, however the realities of population, support, cyclical events, social issues and finances mean that little changes, despite all these wonderful ideas and "think tanks" etc.

Cynical ?

You bet !!

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15 minutes ago, sjc said:

I wouldn't have the top 2 leagues as big as 18 teams personally. 14 with a view of increasing to 16 teams imo.

You're right about it going full circle though and I can see some of the elite Clubs from the big leagues (EPL, La Liga etc) calling for smaller leagues in a bid to chase more revenue using the "best v best" argument.

How would you schedule a 14 team league without some daft split? That's a no. 16 teams has a similar problem. 18 is more like it, 34 games and only play each team once at home and once away, that's particularly appealing.

Regarding the proposal to have no relegation next season - bin that. A league with no relegation would be a farce. If they must make the championship 12 team they can promote 3, relegate last place and throw colt teams in pro leagues into the sun.

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3 hours ago, Falkirkfan6871 said:

Im sure the season the spl went to 10-12 teams there wasn’t relegation or am I wrong? 

There was supposed to be a 3 way playoff, with the teams in 2nd and 3rd in the First Division and the team in 10th in the SPL. It was to be a round robin with the top 2 placed teams going up and the bottom one going down.

Brockville didn't meet the stupid stadia criteria, so instead they just the second place First Division team, us, come up. I strongly suspect that Aberdeen had a big say in this decision, given they were the ones who finished 10th in the SPL. Was it not that season or the one after where Falkirk's plan to groundshare until they had sorted a stadium was rejected?

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Look at Jake Hastie. He went on loan to Alloa, played really well and then got into the Motherwell first team. He's now making a big move to Rangers. This shows the loan system can work and there is no need for Colt teams, even if you believe the nonsense spouted out in favour of them

I don't even blame the OF sides for continually bringing this up. They are like the Tories to me; you expect them to be arseholes so it doesn't even faze me when they act in such a way. It's the SPFL that need to laugh them out the door and stick up for all member clubs, not just their two favourites.

Shame on any club that backs these proposals and hopefully they are all put under immense pressure from supporters to not even think about supporting youth teams ever joining the set-up.

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No Thanks, the numbers are just about right for the clubs we have. I am all for teams being in leagues on merit but increasing it to 12 will give us a Hamilton v Livvy just over the 1000 crowds on a lower scale of under 1000 crowds between clubs.

I think we have 23 full time clubs in Scotland, so a top 2 divisions of 22 is just about right. The next step would be bringing in the split and making relegation favour championship team as it does in the top league and they have ruined the top league, why try and ruin the championship with the same procedures.

Only change that should happen is for promotion and relegation to be the same throughout the leagues, none of this rewarding losers as they do in the top league or simply 2 up 2 down

Edited by MrDust
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I don't see any issue with the current set up at all.

I love the split in the Premiership. I enjoy playing Dunfermline 4 times a season. With our set up you often get a cold away day and a hotter away day at the same ground.

You look at England and the league is dead just now except the top 2.

And England have more European spaces than we do - so any increase to the top league would be counterproductive.

Dinnae touch it. Except from the Premiership play-offs. Which are a joke. Two semi-finals and a one-off final at a neutral venue.

And dinnae even think about Colt Teams.

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12 minutes ago, Poet of the Macabre said:

Look at Jake Hastie. He went on loan to Alloa, played really well and then got into the Motherwell first team. He's now making a big move to Rangers. This shows the loan system can work and there is no need for Colt teams, even if you believe the nonsense spouted out in favour of them

I don't even blame the OF sides for continually bringing this up. They are like the Tories to me; you expect them to be arseholes so it doesn't even faze me when they act in such a way. It's the SPFL that need to laugh them out the door and stick up for all member clubs, not just their two favourites.

Shame on any club that backs these proposals and hopefully they are all put under immense pressure from supporters to not even think about supporting youth teams ever joining the set-up.

 

Totally, Hastie was with us for almost a year, he wasn't brilliant but he learned how to play in a senior environment and definitely toughened up (the wind blew him over when he first arrived). Then progressed up a league with Alloa, and did the same thing again by getting in the Motherwell first team. The whole benefit of the loan system is that boys who are talented get out of the over-protective environment of youth football and learn what it's like to play with experienced pros. You don't even get that with Colt teams, the players are still playing with the youth players they have played with for years. With the Reserve league back, and the loan system, the 'pathway' is there for any decent youngster to make it. You don't need to pollute the lower leagues and change the structure of the Championship. And even if you did, it's not the responsibility of the other 40 clubs in Scotland to accommodate the Old Firm producing talented youngsters which they then use to further their dominance over everyone else.

Edited by Diamonds are Forever
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4 hours ago, I'm Brian said:

So what is going to be the trade off in the negotiation for this?

An extra promotion spot from the championship to premiership, or extra prize money

11th place in the Prem becomes automatic relegation with 2-4th still having a playoff.

 

 

In reality, it is the Premiership which needs expanding but they won't do that as they want 4 bigot brother games.

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44 league games is fucking lunacy.  Some clubs only have squads of 17/18 and fill the bench with teenagers as it is.  How the fuck will they manage to fill 44 matchday squads when having to deal with injuries and suspensions throughout the season?

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1 minute ago, KabbaCharming said:

11th place in the Prem becomes automatic relegation with 2-4th still having a playoff.

 

 

In reality, it is the Premiership which needs expanding but they won't do that as they want 4 bigot brother games.

The Premiership doesn't need expanding - its competitive enough as it is. There also aren't enough meaningful spaces in the league for it to be expanded. If Hearts win the cup, there'll be only 3 League European spaces.

Say it was increased to 16 right, and teams played twice (30 games) and still done a split of 8 - so a 37 game season. What wid the teams in say 5th-13th have to play for?

Just think its needless.

Its not a change of organisation that's required.

Its a change of marketing, ticket prices, supporter relations to ensure stadiums are filled, which will enable the SPFL to become a more attractive product for both players and TV companies.

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Just now, BendtnerBairn said:

The Premiership doesn't need expanding - its competitive enough as it is. There also aren't enough meaningful spaces in the league for it to be expanded. If Hearts win the cup, there'll be only 3 League European spaces.

Say it was increased to 16 right, and teams played twice (30 games) and still done a split of 8 - so a 37 game season. What wid the teams in say 5th-13th have to play for?

Just think its needless.

Its not a change of organisation that's required.

Its a change of marketing, ticket prices, supporter relations to ensure stadiums are filled, which will enable the SPFL to become a more attractive product for both players and TV companies.

Scotland has the highest ratio of attendees/population than anywhere in Europe. It will be difficult to squeeze that percentage up. When teams like Ross County can attract 3,500 from a population of 5000 in Dingwall what else can they do?

Many Stadiums look empty because they were built far too large for the average support of their clubs (including OF visits). For example  the Fakes with a home average attendance of4k in a 10,700 stadium; Livi with 4k in a 9,500 stadium and Killie with 6K in a nearly 18K stadium. These stadiums will never look full bar cardboard cutouts.

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3 minutes ago, NorthBank said:

Scotland has the highest ratio of attendees/population than anywhere in Europe. It will be difficult to squeeze that percentage up. When teams like Ross County can attract 3,500 from a population of 5000 in Dingwall what else can they do?

Many Stadiums look empty because they were built far too large for the average support of their clubs (including OF visits). For example  the Fakes with a home average attendance of4k in a 10,700 stadium; Livi with 4k in a 9,500 stadium and Killie with 6K in a nearly 18K stadium. These stadiums will never look full bar cardboard cutouts.

Because of the stupid rules of the time, which is why clubs like Dunfermline are stuck with daft all seater bore-domes that are usually three quarters empty.

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57 minutes ago, WATTOO said:

I'm a great believer in nothing much changes, despite all the rhetoric that we're fed. (and I don't just mean football).

Here's a link from the 1960 - 61 season and apart from a grim time down at Cappielow and Celtic not at their best, there's not really that much difference in the standings from then to now.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1960–61_in_Scottish_football

Every decade or so, some bright spark comes up with an "original" idea which will solve all our problems, however the realities of population, support, cyclical events, social issues and finances mean that little changes, despite all these wonderful ideas and "think tanks" etc.

Cynical ?

You bet !!

Worth clicking that link just to see Morton at the bottom of the old Division 2

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7 minutes ago, NorthBank said:

Scotland has the highest ratio of attendees/population than anywhere in Europe. It will be difficult to squeeze that percentage up. When teams like Ross County can attract 3,500 from a population of 5000 in Dingwall what else can they do?

Many Stadiums look empty because they were built far too large for the average support of their clubs (including OF visits). For example  the Fakes with a home average attendance of4k in a 10,700 stadium; Livi with 4k in a 9,500 stadium and Killie with 6K in a nearly 18K stadium. These stadiums will never look full bar cardboard cutouts.

I know what you mean but my mate went to Stenny vs Brechin the other day as a neutral and had to pay £15.

That's no snd.

I just feel that if tickets were £10 for adults  and £7 for concessions ye'd see bigger crowds.

That and giving as many free tickets to school kids as possible. Because if School kids go home with a ticket they will want to go and they need an adult take them. Then the club benefits from confectionary as well.

Don't know why every club in Scotland isn't giving out free tickets to schools in their community.

Edited by BendtnerBairn
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The Old Firm Colts in L2 thread is now well over two years old, onto its 155th page, and recently cracked the 3000 post mark.

As one can tell from that, the resistance further down the league has been resoundingly unified - these dodo's at the SPFL thinking the lure of no relegation for a single season would be enough to compel Championship clubs to sign over their soul, then, defies belief.

Here's a poll - the fact we still have to debate a league reorganization, which benefits exactly two out of 42 clubs and literally no one else, is beyond stupid;

https://www.strawpoll.me/17950736

Edited by DutchBorderer
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