Caster Semenya

[welshbairn]

27 minutes ago, Alert Mongoose said:

Does she have a knob? 

That's a bit personal m8, you haven't even met yet.

[Melanius Mullarkey]

29 minutes ago, Alert Mongoose said:

Does she have a knob? 

Maximum tuckage imo.

[Tony Ferrino]

49 minutes ago, Alert Mongoose said:

Does she have a knob? 

Alert Mongoose pops up.

[parsforlife]

She’s quicker than those she is competing against, she’s not cheating. Moaning that it’s not fair because of her biology/genetics is laughable, complete lack of self-awareness from those that moan. You simply don’t get anywhere near top-end sport without genetic advantage over several billion people.

‘I have an advantage over 3.5 billion people, this is entirely fair, but it’s unfair that there’s 1 person with an advantage over me’

Joke the IAAF have taken this line.

Thought the whole point over doping regs was to stop athletes harming themselves long term for short term sporting gain. Yet there trying to tell athletes they need to mess about with their natural hormone levels?

This is clear victimisation of caster and everyone involved in making this decision should be absolutely ashamed.

[Boo Khaki]

Abolish all differentiation in athletics then, have everyone on the planet just compete in one singular class, and we'll all just pretend that it's petfectly a-ok that every single event, race, games, and medal is exclusively dominated by biological males [emoji106]

[Boo Khaki]

What a bizarre post. 

In what respect? It's the logical end point of those espousing the position that it's perfectly reasonable to permit intersex people, trans atheletes etc with significant physiological advatages to compete with biological women.

After all, if biological advatage is just 'tough shit' and part amd parcel of athletics, why should we differentiate between men and women in the first place?

[D Angelo Barksdale]

34 minutes ago, Boo Khaki said:

There's undoubtedly going to be a shitstorm about trans athletes competing at international events, but as you point out yourself, that's a shitstorm that's down the road yet. Semenya isn't trans, this is situation occuring right now, affecting athletes who are already being disadvantaged before trans athletes are even in the picture.

It's not as if everyone just rolled over and went 'ok then' after she was tested ten years ago, it"s just a nonsense its taken this long to address what has always been a palpably unfair situation.

They're not really addressing the issue though are they ? All they are doing is effectively banning one particular athlete from their prefered events by saying her testosterone levels are too high for these distances.

It's just muddying the waters even more. Is the eligibility for those distances now not based on binary gender but on T levels ? Will female athletes with low T now boost themselves to the accepted limit ? If I get my T levels low enough can I give the 800m a bash ? 

Semenya was born and raised a woman. A woman with higher testosterone levels than usual. This gives her an advantage, we don't know how much of an advantage though. The world of sport is full of competitors who have been blessed with genetic endowments(no jokes please) and huge physical advantages that are unfair. 

I get the concerns about trans athletes, I really do. There certainly needs to be a discussion around that issue. But I'm not buying into the trans panic stuff that has burly 18 stone guys calling themselves Julie and sweeping up all the records and medals from the 100m to the synchronised swimming. The majority of that stuff is just bigotry. There's a solution and a compromise there, it's just going to take time.

Incidentally, the Semenya case, which was ostensibly settled by her gender test 10 years ago, only really reared up again after her win in Rio and the tears and snotters from the 6th placed Sharpe and the racist Polish lassie. Perhaps one for the conspiracy theorists, but I'm pretty sure that Sharpe's dad is quite good pals with a guy named Seb Coe ...

 

[Boo Khaki]

In the respect that Caster Semenya is a woman, competing in women only events. 

Only because they fucked up yen years ago and permitted her to run with women before they realised the implications.

She's a woman in every regard, that's not in dispute. What is in dispute is that its in any way fair to permit her to compete in events that are participated in almost exclusively by biological and physiological birth females.

Enormous difference between sex and gender. She's female in gender, identifies and lives as a woman, as is her absolute right. She's still physiolocally so different to 'cis' women though that its palpably ludicrous to expect them to compete with her on fair terms.

[Boo Khaki]

I'm saying nothing of the sort. I'm saying they shouldn't be competing against opponents who are exclusively physiologically female. You admit she has an insurmountable disadvantage if she was to compete against men, but simultaneously totally disregard the very same insurmountable disadvantage faced by the cisgender females trying to compete with her.

So it's fine for one sex to put up with inherent disadvantage, but wrong to extrapolate that to everybody?

I'm all for rights and participation, but I'm also an inherent pragmatist.

I genuinely believe that the only practical and practicable solution is a third class for intersex, trans, DSD athletes etc. It might not be viable right now, but i think its an inevitability and the only way to be fair with all people regardless of birth sex etc.

It's a matter of time before society accepts that not everyone conforms to a simple male/female box tick excercise and adjusts apropriately. There will inevitably be arguments about the fairness of transwomen competing with transmen, intersex people etc, but that's a fight for another time. Right now we need to think about the rights of the 99% of athletes not to be subjected to unfairness, not acommodating the 1% minority regardless of the consequences for competitive fairness.

Edited May 3, 2019 by Boo Khaki

[Boo Khaki]

1 hour ago, Henderson to deliver ..... said:

I get the concerns about trans athletes, I really do. There certainly needs to be a discussion around that issue. But I'm not buying into the trans panic stuff that has burly 18 stone guys calling themselves Julie and sweeping up all the records and medals from the 100m to the synchronised swimming. The majority of that stuff is just bigotry. There's a solution and a compromise there, it's just going to take time.

Absolutely, however, that does nothing to address the legitimate grievances of female athletes who are currently wasting their entire careers trying to compete with people who, as crude and indelicate as it might be to put it, simply aren't unambiguously female by birth.

[whiskychimp]

I may be missing the point but anything that makes nasty, *** creatures like Lynsey Sharp cry should be legal and played on repeat on the BBC

Then everyone would say their licence fee was a bargain 

Edited May 3, 2019 by whiskychimp

[Dons_1988]

10 hours ago, ali_91 said:

It’s a perfectly valid point. White, middle class athletes effectively isolating and bullying a black athlete who has done absolutely nothing wrong is screaming of subconscious racial prejudice. 

It's not a valid point.

The comparison to Michael Phelps was particularly dumb.

It's an incredibly complex case and to boil it down to a case of racial oppression is pretty crass to be honest.  Can you back this up with anything other than the fact the people involved are the races you mentioned?

[Dons_1988]

3 minutes ago, ali_91 said:

It’s pretty crass to sit in your white man world and completely ignore the feelings of the black community on the matter. 

Well one of Sharp’s allies was proud of the fact that she was the ‘second white to finish.’ I suppose that’s not a racist view in your eyes? 

She was also congratulated for finishing third, in a race she finished sixth in, with three African runners occupying the front three, only one of which was Semenya. No anti-African, elitist western sentiment in that one either na? 

 

You're seeking this stuff out. The only suggestions of racism I've seen on this matter are on P&B.

The comments you're referring to, whilst a little insensitive a) don't seem particularly relevant to the discussion at hand and b) is probably in reference to the fact that Africans absolutely dominate most international running circuits, and is more of a recognition of their superiority as opposed to dismissing their achievements.

The photo you posted means absolutely nothing and is nothing more than shit stirring.

[Bairnardo]

You're seeking this stuff out. The only suggestions of racism I've seen on this matter are on P&B.
The comments you're referring to, whilst a little insensitive a) don't seem particularly relevant to the discussion at hand and b) is probably in reference to the fact that Africans absolutely dominate most international running circuits, and is more of a recognition of their superiority as opposed to dismissing their achievements.
The photo you posted means absolutely nothing and is nothing more than shit stirring.

The post he made is relevant in terms of Lynsey Sharp and her moron pals attitudes towards Semenya. It is likely that racism is a big part of their attitudes towards her.

I dont think the IAAF and the CAS are institutionally racist though, nor has Semenyas case been just on the basis of race. I think if it has been judged on any prejudice, it would be transphobia.

[Dons_1988]

We'll agree to disagree. It's not worth getting into.

[Gnash]

3 minutes ago, Bairnardo said:

The post he made is relevant in terms of Lynsey Sharp and her moron pals attitudes towards Semenya. It is likely that racism is a big part of their attitudes towards her.

I dont think the IAAF and the CAS are institutionally racist though, nor has Semenyas case been just on the basis of race. I think if it has been judged on any prejudice, it would be transphobia.

...but she's not trans. 

[Dons_1988]

1 minute ago, ali_91 said:

‘Have you any proof there’s a racial element at play, other than the racist comments I’m going to pretend aren’t racist?.’ 

 

I'm not getting involved. You win Ali.

[Bairnardo]

...but she's not trans. 

I know but as I said before, I think she is being thrown under a bus in preparation for future cases involving trans athletes.

[ICTChris]

I think a lot of people in South Africa think that there is a level of racism in this discussion.  The suggestion is that black women are judged differently for their bodies, you see the same discussion around Serena Williams, who has spoken about how her body is spoken about.

I'm not sure of the racial differences in intersex people.  there is a village in the Dominican Republic where there is a very high incidence of interex features among the population (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Las_Salinas).

[WullieBroonIsGod]

2 minutes ago, ICTChris said:

I think a lot of people in South Africa think that there is a level of racism in this discussion.  The suggestion is that black women are judged differently for their bodies, you see the same discussion around Serena Williams, who has spoken about how her body is spoken about.

I'm not sure of the racial differences in intersex people.  there is a village in the Dominican Republic where there is a very high incidence of interex features among the population (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Las_Salinas).

I was just about to mention the Williams sisters.

Some of the comments around them over the last 20 years have been awful,  as they don't conform to the body standards of placed upon women.  Tennis being a fairly elitist sport doesn't help though.  At least in athletics black athletes have been dominant a while.

My comparison to Phelps was purely to highlight how different the media portray the two.  Phelps is the swimming god with amazing genes and we are lucky enough to witness him in his prime (we are!),  Semenya is portrayed as an unknown, a freak, someone to be fearful of.  This is a woman who has dedicated her life to athletics, gone to the very top, and athletics has returned the favour like this?