Caster Semenya

[WullieBroonIsGod]

It's a fair comment re Phelps though.  Lauded as being "Born to swim" with his wingspan, weird elbows and the freakish suppression of lactic acid production (A superpower they gave Captain America!).  I don't see any Lynsey Sharp swimming equivalents greeting about getting bumped up from 6th to 5th because it's not fair.

 

Every elite athlete is a "freak" in some way.  Else everyone would run the same times and sport would be shite.

 

White American male = good genetic freak

Black African woman = bad genetic freak

Edited May 2, 2019 by WullieBroonIsGod

[Dons_1988]

3 minutes ago, WullieBroonIsGod said:

It's a fair comment re Phelps though.  Lauded as being "Born to swim" with his wingspan, weird elbows and the freakish suppression of lactic acid production (A superpower they gave Captain America!).  I don't see any Lynsey Sharp swimming equivalents greeting about getting bumped up from 6th to 5th because it's not fair.

White American male = good genetic freak

Black African woman = bad genetic freak

Give that shit a rest.

 

[KnightswoodBear]

22 minutes ago, MONKMAN said:

  If you could literally design the body of the perfect swimmer it was Phelps, from the size of his limbs, hand and feet, to the shape of his torso. 

I'd design a dolphin, or yon Shark that can swim at 50 miles an hour.

[Bairnardo]

Apologies if covered already but the first thought I had with this is that the IAAF know a gender related storm is coming and rather than pass down a ruling against a transgender athletr eho woukd have a full on societal movement behind them, they have opportunistically gone for a pre emptive strike since Semenya happened to be there. Throwing her under a bus in order to lay the ground work for how they intend to deal with trans athletes in future.

Shitty treatment of her anyway whatever way you cut it.

IAAF come off like utter shitebags to me. In that regard they have the leader they deserve in that arse Coe.

[Dons_1988]

2 minutes ago, Bairnardo said:

Apologies if covered already but the first thought I had with this is that the IAAF know a gender related storm is coming and rather than pass down a ruling against a transgender athletr eho woukd have a full on societal movement behind them, they have opportunistically gone for a pre emptive strike since Semenya happened to be there. Throwing her under a bus in order to lay the ground work for how they intend to deal with trans athletes in future.

Shitty treatment of her anyway whatever way you cut it.

IAAF come off like utter shitebags to me. In that regard they have the leader they deserve in that arse Coe.

I think there's definitely an element here that Semenya is collateral in a wider gender in sport debate.

[Jacksgranda]

I was listening to a discussion on Radio Ulster about this and was astonished to learn that the BBC has a Gender and Identity reporter! 

I heard a debate yesterday about it, too, and I thought I thought IAFF were right. I've since changed my mind, I think they're wrong.

[D Angelo Barksdale]

47 minutes ago, Bairnardo said:

Apologies if covered already but the first thought I had with this is that the IAAF know a gender related storm is coming and rather than pass down a ruling against a transgender athletr eho woukd have a full on societal movement behind them, they have opportunistically gone for a pre emptive strike since Semenya happened to be there. Throwing her under a bus in order to lay the ground work for how they intend to deal with trans athletes in future.

Shitty treatment of her anyway whatever way you cut it.

IAAF come off like utter shitebags to me. In that regard they have the leader they deserve in that arse Coe.

I don't think you're far off here.

They've made a total c**t of it and potentially ruined a woman's career into the bargain. 

[Brother Blades]

Listening to Sharon Davies earlier & according to her, it’s been released that Caster has XY chromosomes as opposed to XX chromosomes & that the ruling on testosterone levels will only apply to athletes with XY chromosomes & not be applied to athletes on XX testing. So, if an athlete has extraordinary levels of testosterone but has XX, they are fine....... I haven’t checked whether this is the ruling or not, or indeed if it’s been released that Caster is indeed XY, if so, how has she been able to compete as a woman since initial testing?
Sharon Davies is coming across as a c**t on this issue in my opinion.
This entire ruling is obviously aimed at one competitor as it only applies to her distance range (when the case was presented). It’s a minefield, but to apply the ruling to such a limited distance range is a terrible judgement (whether or not the science behind the decision is correct). I’m with Caster on this, to compete at her best distances she will need to alter her physiology via drugs.

[Jacksgranda]

9 minutes ago, Brother Blades said:

Listening to Sharon Davies earlier & according to her, it’s been released that Caster has XY chromosomes as opposed to XX chromosomes & that the ruling on testosterone levels will only apply to athletes with XY chromosomes & not be applied to athletes on XX testing. So, if an athlete has extraordinary levels of testosterone but has XX, they are fine....... I haven’t checked whether this is the ruling or not, or indeed if it’s been released that Caster is indeed XY, if so, how has she been able to compete as a woman since initial testing?
Sharon Davies is coming across as a c**t on this issue in my opinion.
This entire ruling is obviously aimed at one competitor as it only applies to her distance range (when the case was presented). It’s a minefield, but to apply the ruling to such a limited distance range is a terrible judgement (whether or not the science behind the decision is correct). I’m with Caster on this, to compete at her best distances she will need to alter her physiology via drugs.

I've heard her twice now, and the second time was what swung my vote to supporting Caster Semenya.

[Boo Khaki]

7 hours ago, Henderson to deliver ..... said:

She had her gender tested in 2010, the results were never made public but the IAAF cleared her to compete in women's events.

Are the authorities now saying she's not 'woman' enough to compete without taking performance reducing drugs ?

 

No, they tested her gender and confirmed that physiologically she meets their definition of a woman, but reading between the lines it's clear that that's not all there is to her.

I realise that this is nothing more than speculation, so I'm happy to remove it or have the mods do so if it's deemed inappropriate, but I have read 'reports' that she's physiologically hermaphrodite, so externally she resembles a female, but she also has internal testicles, so effectively she is both sexes at once.

I agree entirely with @Jambomo's excellent post on the previous page. This isn't about discriminating against Caster Semenya because of who or what she is, it's about protecting the right of the vast majority of biogical females to a fair and equitable competition. It's unfortunate that to do so they require Semenya to take extraordinary steps herself, but the alternative is either that you forego all notions of fairness entirely, or start opening the pandora's box of permitting athletes to legally use whatever artificial means of levelling the field that they see fit.

Either way, someone 'suffers'. It's a question of do you impose that suffering on the 99% of physiologically typical female athletes, or the tiny minority who are atypical? Ideally you wouldn't make exceptions for anybody at all, but then you're ignoring the issue of fairness.

It's not just about Semenya. If you go look at what's happening in female collegiate athletics in the US, men who identify as women are being permitted to compete in women's events, with the end result that athletes who were previously also-rans when they competed against men, are now completely obliterating the field in women's events, and physiological women simply can't compete. As much as I'm all for inclusion, trans rights, and right to self-definition, this is patently and ridiculously unfair on athletes who are born biologically female.

[Zen Archer (Raconteur)]

36 minutes ago, Boo Khaki said:

No, they tested her gender and confirmed that physiologically she meets their definition of a woman, but reading between the lines it's clear that that's not all there is to her.

I realise that this is nothing more than speculation, so I'm happy to remove it or have the mods do so if it's deemed inappropriate, but I have read 'reports' that she's physiologically hermaphrodite, so externally she resembles a female, but she also has internal testicles, so effectively she is both sexes at once.

I agree entirely with @Jambomo's excellent post on the previous page. This isn't about discriminating against Caster Semenya because of who or what she is, it's about protecting the right of the vast majority of biogical females to a fair and equitable competition. It's unfortunate that to do so they require Semenya to take extraordinary steps herself, but the alternative is either that you forego all notions of fairness entirely, or start opening the pandora's box of permitting athletes to legally use whatever artificial means of levelling the field that they see fit.

Either way, someone 'suffers'. It's a question of do you impose that suffering on the 99% of physiologically typical female athletes, or the tiny minority who are atypical? Ideally you wouldn't make exceptions for anybody at all, but then you're ignoring the issue of fairness.

It's not just about Semenya. If you go look at what's happening in female collegiate athletics in the US, men who identify as women are being permitted to compete in women's events, with the end result that athletes who were previously also-rans when they competed against men, are now completely obliterating the field in women's events, and physiological women simply can't compete. As much as I'm all for inclusion, trans rights, and right to self-definition, this is patently and ridiculously unfair on athletes who are born biologically female.

[D Angelo Barksdale]

1 hour ago, Boo Khaki said:

No, they tested her gender and confirmed that physiologically she meets their definition of a woman, but reading between the lines it's clear that that's not all there is to her.

I realise that this is nothing more than speculation, so I'm happy to remove it or have the mods do so if it's deemed inappropriate, but I have read 'reports' that she's physiologically hermaphrodite, so externally she resembles a female, but she also has internal testicles, so effectively she is both sexes at once.

I agree entirely with @Jambomo's excellent post on the previous page. This isn't about discriminating against Caster Semenya because of who or what she is, it's about protecting the right of the vast majority of biogical females to a fair and equitable competition. It's unfortunate that to do so they require Semenya to take extraordinary steps herself, but the alternative is either that you forego all notions of fairness entirely, or start opening the pandora's box of permitting athletes to legally use whatever artificial means of levelling the field that they see fit.

Either way, someone 'suffers'. It's a question of do you impose that suffering on the 99% of physiologically typical female athletes, or the tiny minority who are atypical? Ideally you wouldn't make exceptions for anybody at all, but then you're ignoring the issue of fairness.

It's not just about Semenya. If you go look at what's happening in female collegiate athletics in the US, men who identify as women are being permitted to compete in women's events, with the end result that athletes who were previously also-rans when they competed against men, are now completely obliterating the field in women's events, and physiological women simply can't compete. As much as I'm all for inclusion, trans rights, and right to self-definition, this is patently and ridiculously unfair on athletes who are born biologically female.

This is all very well and good, but it doesn't change the fact that her gender was tested 10 years ago and she was cleared to compete as a woman.

The situation now is, she is able to compete as a woman in distances 0-200m and 1500m+. But would have to compete as a male in 400 - 1500m events unless she takes performance reducing drugs. It is of course sheer coincidence that those are her distances and in no way means that she's been discriminated against or thrown under the bus in some sort of opening shot in a forthcoming trans war.

[ICTChris]

https://sportsscientists.com/2019/05/on-dsds-the-theory-of-testosterone-performance-the-cas-ruling-on-caster-semenya/

[Broomhill Ultra]

She should just beat the c***s by a wee bit then nobody would fucking bother.

[WullieBroonIsGod]

It would be particularly sweet if she did the doping, dropped her test levels to the required range, then still horsed Lynsey Sharp. She could then be interviewed by the BBC and give a Gregg Wallace style "pleasing" to Paula Radcliffe.

Lynsey could then return to tweeting child abuse jokes and claiming she didn't know what they meant.

[Broomhill Ultra]

It would be particularly sweet if she did the doping, dropped her test levels to the required range, then still horsed Lynsey Sharp. She could then be interviewed by the BBC and give a Gregg Wallace style "pleasing" to Paula Radcliffe.
Lynsey could then return to tweeting child abuse jokes and claiming she didn't know what they meant.

Lynsey’s a lovely girl and a great ambassador

https://graziadaily.co.uk/life/real-life/lynsey-sharp-cry-800m-race

[welshbairn]

Quote

“It hurts a bit. I saw Melissa Bishop who was very disappointed, she improved her personal best and was 4th. It's sad, and I think she should be the gold medalist."

"I'm glad I'm the first European, the second white," she added. 

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/olympics/rio-2016-joanna-jozwik-caster-semenya-800m-hyperandrogenism-a7203731.html

[Alert Mongoose]

Does she have a knob? 

[jofis]

10 hours ago, Herman Hessian said:

it's obvious that the amount of testosterone in male athletes varies from one individual to another to some extent; does anyone know how this variation compares to that between Semenya and other female competitors - is her imbalance grossly disproportionate ? curious as to whether a male athlete may now be able to claim that another athlete of the same gender 'has an unfair advantage' through having naturally higher testosterone levels - or is the difference between blokes at a far less significant level from that of Semenya to other women ?

figures published yesterday stated that male testosterone levels vary from  7.7 to 29.4 nmol/L, so one bloke can have pretty much four times 'as much' as another - how does this compare to the 'Semenya > other women' disparity ?

 

There was a discussion on these very points today during Inside Science on Radio 4. Some interesting areas covered by the contributor regarding the effectiveness of testosterone on performance enhancement, the moral implications of forcing athletes to take medication to suppress natural hormone occurrence and how DSD contributes to levels of naturally occurring hormones. The phrase 'fetishisation of testosterone' was also introduced, which I found fairly apt. 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0004mfv

[Boo Khaki]

This is all very well and good, but it doesn't change the fact that her gender was tested 10 years ago and she was cleared to compete as a woman.
The situation now is, she is able to compete as a woman in distances 0-200m and 1500m+. But would have to compete as a male in 400 - 1500m events unless she takes performance reducing drugs. It is of course sheer coincidence that those are her distances and in no way means that she's been discriminated against or thrown under the bus in some sort of opening shot in a forthcoming trans war.

There's undoubtedly going to be a shitstorm about trans athletes competing at international events, but as you point out yourself, that's a shitstorm that's down the road yet. Semenya isn't trans, this is situation occuring right now, affecting athletes who are already being disadvantaged before trans athletes are even in the picture.

It's not as if everyone just rolled over and went 'ok then' after she was tested ten years ago, it"s just a nonsense its taken this long to address what has always been a palpably unfair situation.