Karamoko Dembele

[Kuro]

5 hours ago, Tartan Tammy 1297 said:

 

Go and  take yer face for a shite

Put him on block, I have.

[forameus]

Expecting loyalty these days is naive though.  The boy's clearly very talented, and at 16 he's got his whole life ahead of him.  Does he decide to stick with Scotland, where he's grown up and hope to either come along for the ride as we have a revival, or cause one himself?  Or does he look at his career as a whole and realise that he stands to be far more successful - and more importantly to him I'd imagine, far richer - by representing where he was born?  Expecting loyalty or "patriotism" is all well and good, but it's not really realistic now.  Players are quite happy to sack off international football completely in favour of club football, so why do you expect them to care so much about something like this?

But as far as I know, this kind of stuff is fairly common at youth level.  Several players have represented both, flitting between them at will.  He could still end up playing for us, or he could turn out for England.  I suspect if he's as good as he could be, he'll play for them, not us.  It's his choice, let's concentrate on people that actually want to play for us.

[DA Baracus]

19 hours ago, Tartan Tammy 1297 said:

Rubbish loads off guys played for the same team there whole career before the bosman ruling

'Off guys'? Guys who were ill? Not getting that reference.

Anyway, players had no choice before the Bosman ruling. If a club wanted a player to stay, there was nothing the player could do about it. Bosman was 100% correct in his lawsuit, and he correctly won it.

[sjc]

11 minutes ago, DA Baracus said:

'Off guys'? Guys who were ill? Not getting that reference.

Anyway, players had no choice before the Bosman ruling. If a club wanted a player to stay, there was nothing the player could do about it. Bosman was 100% correct in his lawsuit, and he correctly won it.

The case of Bosman wasn't really the norm though, was it? You're right in respect of that case highlighting what could happen but in most cases a fee was agreed or a tribunal would set the fee.

He biggest beneficiaries from the ruling has been far and away player agents......money that leaves the game completely.

[Tartan Tammy 1297]

21 minutes ago, sjc said:

The case of Bosman wasn't really the norm though, was it? You're right in respect of that case highlighting what could happen but in most cases a fee was agreed or a tribunal would set the fee.

He biggest beneficiaries from the ruling has been far and away player agents......money that leaves the game completely.

Exactly agents destroying the game getting them to move after only playing a few games and going down to England and being for forgotten  about

For every Fraser there is a Grimmer or a Kennedy or a Feruz

Edited April 22, 2019 by Tartan Tammy 1297
Clarity

[sjc]

Just now, Tartan Tammy 1297 said:

Exactly agents destroying the game getting them to move after only playing a few games and going down to England and being for voting about

For every Fraser there is a Grimmer or a Kennedy or a Feruz

In fairness, the ruling suits the big Club too...... particularly the elite Clubs.

[DA Baracus]

19 minutes ago, sjc said:

The case of Bosman wasn't really the norm though, was it? You're right in respect of that case highlighting what could happen but in most cases a fee was agreed or a tribunal would set the fee.

He biggest beneficiaries from the ruling has been far and away player agents......money that leaves the game completely.

It wasn't the norm, true, but it was always something clubs could do, and too many did it too often.

Agents always existed, but clubs have no one but themselves to blame for how football changed with the Bosman ruling. Plus they don't need to pay these agents anything; the agents are employed by the player. Of course that's not really realistic and as it would require clubs looking out for others and not just themselves.

Edited April 22, 2019 by DA Baracus

[sjc]

11 minutes ago, DA Baracus said:

It wasn't the norm, true, but it was always something clubs could do, and too many did it too often.

Agents always existed, but clubs have no one but themselves to blame for how football changed with the Bosman ruling. Plus they don't need to pay these agents anything; the agents are employed by the player. Of course that's not really realistic and as it would require clubs looking out for others and not just themselves.

Agents never had this much power though. Players (through their Agents) have effectively become bigger that the Clubs.....

I genuinely wonder how the likes of Shankley, Stein, Paisley would have managed in the post Bosman era.

[DA Baracus]

Just now, sjc said:

Agents never had this much power though. Players (through their Agents) have effectively become bigger that the Clubs.....

I genuinely wonder how the likes of Shankley, Stein, Paisley would have managed in the post Bosman era.

They only have the power the clubs give to them though. As I said, it would be quite easy to reverse that, but it would require clubs working together and not being selfish, which will never happen. The greed of clubs has enabled the greed of agents and players.

[sjc]

Just now, DA Baracus said:

They only have the power the clubs give to them though. As I said, it would be quite easy to reverse that, but it would require clubs working together and not being selfish, which will never happen. The greed of clubs has enabled the greed of agents and players.

The Club's are subject to market forces like all other industries. They either pay the money or don't get the player because the Agent will be confident of creating interest from other Clubs via the media.

[RandomGuy.]

23 minutes ago, sjc said:

The Club's are subject to market forces like all other industries. They either pay the money or don't get the player because the Agent will be confident of creating interest from other Clubs via the media.

That'll be why Wolves managed to sign Ruben Neves while in the Championship...

Clubs and agents are in the same ship, players are happy to swim alongside as long as they get rich doing it.

[sjc]

18 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

That'll be why Wolves managed to sign Ruben Neves while in the Championship...

Clubs and agents are in the same ship, players are happy to swim alongside as long as they get rich doing it.

Wolves are effectively owned by Agents......hence the FA investigation. In the end they were happy the problem was promoted out of the way.

 

[LondonSons]

This is where having a shambolic governing body, youth development system and national team hurts us in the long run. Many young players have mixed heritage or diverse backgrounds and national identity is not necessarily a fixed thing.  Demanding "loyalty" in that context is pointless.

Any young player in Dembele's position, particularly with his talent, will naturally opt for the environment most conducive to his success as a footballer. Sadly, that will not be Scotland. I bet the England youth set up is a lot more fun, progressive and exciting for a young player too.

If we at least sorted our youth system, followed the Belgian, Dutch or (new) German models rather than the half-arsed compromise that is Project Brave, then we'd be a far more attractive proposition and maybe prevent this sort of situation from occurring.

 

 

 

[Gordopolis]

This is where having a shambolic governing body, youth development system and national team hurts us in the long run. Many young players have mixed heritage or diverse backgrounds and national identity is not necessarily a fixed thing.  Demanding "loyalty" in that context is pointless.
Any young player in Dembele's position, particularly with his talent, will naturally opt for the environment most conducive to his success as a footballer. Sadly, that will not be Scotland. I bet the England youth set up is a lot more fun, progressive and exciting for a young player too.
If we at least sorted our youth system, followed the Belgian, Dutch or (new) German models rather than the half-arsed compromise that is Project Brave, then we'd be a far more attractive proposition and maybe prevent this sort of situation from occurring.
 
 
 

Genuine question: is there a resource that clearly compares and contrasts the likes of the Belgian or German systems Vs Project Brave? Even a list of the big 'wins' the foreign systems offer that PB does not, and the flaws in PB not evident in the foreign ones.

[LondonSons]

2 minutes ago, Gordopolis said:

1 hour ago, LondonSons said:

This is where having a shambolic governing body, youth development system and national team hurts us in the long run. Many young players have mixed heritage or diverse backgrounds and national identity is not necessarily a fixed thing.  Demanding "loyalty" in that context is pointless.
Any young player in Dembele's position, particularly with his talent, will naturally opt for the environment most conducive to his success as a footballer. Sadly, that will not be Scotland. I bet the England youth set up is a lot more fun, progressive and exciting for a young player too.
If we at least sorted our youth system, followed the Belgian, Dutch or (new) German models rather than the half-arsed compromise that is Project Brave, then we'd be a far more attractive proposition and maybe prevent this sort of situation from occurring.
 
 
 

Genuine question: is there a resource that clearly compares and contrasts the likes of the Belgian or German systems Vs Project Brave? Even a list of the big 'wins' the foreign systems offer that PB does not, and the flaws in PB not evident in the foreign ones.

Genuine answer: I don't know other than the obvious results on the pitch. 

This is a very good article on the Belgian "blueprint" - https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2014/jun/06/belgium-blueprint-gave-birth-golden-generation-world-cup-

This Belgian coach seems to tour various football associations/federations teaching them about the Belgian blueprint: https://twitter.com/KrisVDHaegen . He often shares interesting thoughts and resources.

A really interesting example is Luxembourg (population: 500,000). Luxembourg adopted the Belgian model 15 years ago and are beginning to see the results now with results against France, Bulgaria, Belarus, Lithuania, Georgia, Hungary and an easy 3-0 win in San Marino. Many of their young players could choose another country but stick with Luxembourg as they are brought through the national academy they created. One young player is on Bayern's books, has been asked to play for both Sweden and Ireland but has stuck with Luxembourg to under 21 level (hasn't been called up for the full team yet).

[Gordopolis]

Genuine answer: I don't know other than the obvious results on the pitch. 

Thanks for the info. Regards the bit I've quoted: is it fair to gauge PB based on results on the pitch yet given the initiative (in it's current format) is only a few years old?

[DA Baracus]

Given who they appointed to oversee it, the SFA are showing they don't particularly care about Project Brave, especially since it's obvious that Mackay would leave right away if a semi decent job offer came in. He's already said he wants the Scotland job full time (before the McLeish appointment), so aside from his utter lack of skills and experience for such a role, he isn't really committed, and as such the SFA aren't really committed.

 

Plus Project Brave is fucking garbage and will probably be scrapped within a few years.

[Kuro]

47 minutes ago, DA Baracus said:

Given who they appointed to oversee it, the SFA are showing they don't particularly care about Project Brave, especially since it's obvious that Mackay would leave right away if a semi decent job offer came in. He's already said he wants the Scotland job full time (before the McLeish appointment), so aside from his utter lack of skills and experience for such a role, he isn't really committed, and as such the SFA aren't really committed.

 

Plus Project Brave is fucking garbage and will probably be scrapped within a few years.

Imagine you're a black or Asian or gay young player coming through in Scotland too, awful message to send.  The worst appointment in the history of football, and shows the governing body here are old out of touch men who live in the dark ages. 

[LondonSons]

10 hours ago, Gordopolis said:

 

 

Thanks for the info. Regards the bit I've quoted: is it fair to gauge PB based on results on the pitch yet given the initiative (in it's current format) is only a few years old?

 

If, in a few years, results at senior level have markedly improved and we are holding on to players who could choose England, Ireland or any other country then great, it will have worked. 

At the moment however, are our youth teams showing progress and do young players with dual nationality want to play for us? Is the right man in charge of PB at the SFA? Does any other successful or improving European nation essentially leave youth development in the hands of the clubs? 

[cmontheloknow]

Dembele has been tickling the St. George's boaby for a few years now, any switch cannot be unexpected.