Strachan or McLeish?

[Malcolm Malcolm]

4 hours ago, SpoonTon said:

We've got a serious problem at the moment with players not being terribly committed to playing for the national team. It's not just about having the name, it's about having a guy with the right attitude who commands respect and speaks very well. He has a wealth of playing experience that most of our currently players do not. He has shown an interest in coaching for a long time (since working as a youth coach at Man Utd when he couldn't play) and others in the game speak very highly of him. I wouldn't usually go down the route of suggesting a player for a role on the coaching staff, but I think we really need something like this at the moment. 

I think it could also help with the acceptance of getting a foreign manager on board. 

I'm not against the idea of having him on board but not as the manager. This post, however, is unmitigated pish. 'Speaks well' FFS, what next, elocution lessons for coaches? Alex Ferguson was and is borderline difficult to understand.

[forameus]

6 minutes ago, Malcolm Malcolm said:

I'm not against the idea of having him on board but not as the manager. This post, however, is unmitigated pish. 'Speaks well' FFS, what next, elocution lessons for coaches? Alex Ferguson was and is borderline difficult to understand.

As I said when the main argument against Strachan seemed to be that was a snide wee p***k at times, I don't really care if our manager walks into press conferences, spits on the floor and blows raspberries for an hour as long as he can coach us to winning most games.   That's really all that matters.

I mean, are we really going to be sitting there after failing to qualify again and say "Aye, but that post-match interview was just so eloquent "

[TheScarf]

2 minutes ago, forameus said:

As I said when the main argument against Strachan seemed to be that was a snide wee p***k at times, I don't really care if our manager walks into press conferences, spits on the floor and blows raspberries for an hour as long as he can coach us to winning most games.   That's really all that matters.

I mean, are we really going to be sitting there after failing to qualify again and say "Aye, but that post-match interview was just so eloquent "

i remember on more than one occasion there was a clear question getting asked in the media of certain players and then he would play them out of spite.  Chris Martin over Leigh Griffiths being one.  

[Malcolm Malcolm]

2 minutes ago, forameus said:

As I said when the main argument against Strachan seemed to be that was a snide wee p***k at times, I don't really care if our manager walks into press conferences, spits on the floor and blows raspberries for an hour as long as he can coach us to winning most games.   That's really all that matters.

I mean, are we really going to be sitting there after failing to qualify again and say "Aye, but that post-match interview was just so eloquent "

Exactly, it's a load of nonsense. Some of the best managers of all time have been downright surly. Footballers won't necessarily respond to eloquence. It doesn't suggest tactical or coaching nous either. 

[forameus]

1 minute ago, TheScarf said:

i remember on more than one occasion there was a clear question getting asked in the media of certain players and then he would play them out of spite.  Chris Martin over Leigh Griffiths being one.  

Not sure he'd ever play a player purely out of spite with his job at stake.  Given they're completely different players, there would always be a football reason behind it.  Of course, you can then go after the football reason, which having seen Chris's huuuuuuuuuge arse try to play, would be fair enough.

Griffiths was approaching sainthood at that time, which didn't help.  

[DA Baracus]

Strachan saying that he didn't pick Griffiths because he was too short to defend corners should have been an immediate sacking offence.

[The Moonster]

I remember when Dundee appointed Neil McCann and folk said "he speaks well on the telly".  I've come to the conclusion that there's a reason these folk are speaking on the telly and not to first team squads in dressing rooms. 

To be clear, I think Darren Fletchers knowledge and understanding of today's game is better than Neil McCanns, but you can't base anything on him pointing out how shite Scotland are on TV. Does he even have any coaching badges?

[Malcolm Malcolm]

11 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

I remember when Dundee appointed Neil McCann and folk said "he speaks well on the telly".  I've come to the conclusion that there's a reason these folk are speaking on the telly and not to first team squads in dressing rooms. 

To be clear, I think Darren Fletchers knowledge and understanding of today's game is better than Neil McCanns, but you can't base anything on him pointing out how shite Scotland are on TV. Does he even have any coaching badges?

It's an old Scottish reflex that makes no sense in relation to football - he 'speaks well' basically means that he does a good impression of an upper-middle class professional. McCann was an awful manager and its notable that he seemed to be hampered in his communication with players by his large ego.

[Dons_1988]

There's probably "sections" in the way that there's "sections" in the Thistle support who don't like artisan bread.  They're a minority, and they deserve to be shunned from society.
But seriously, I imagine there are some who echo the SFA's supposed view of "once with Berti, never again", or are just plain xenophobic.  They're fucking morons though.

The ‘we tried foreign before and it didn’t work argument’ is possibly one of the dumbest things I’ve ever heard. They say it in England too and I find it absolutely baffling that it’s given any credence.

[Malcolm Malcolm]

2 minutes ago, Dons_1988 said:

The ‘we tried foreign before and it didn’t work argument’ is possibly one of the dumbest things I’ve ever heard. They say it in England too and I find it absolutely baffling that it’s given any credence.

 

Yup, it's a nonsense argument. I understand not wanting to overpay for a has been big name doing the rounds for the cash, but ruling out foreign coaches indicates an irredeemable level of stupidity at Hampden.

[Gordopolis]

I'm not against the idea of having him on board but not as the manager. This post, however, is unmitigated pish. 'Speaks well' FFS, what next, elocution lessons for coaches? Alex Ferguson was and is borderline difficult to understand.

I don't think SpoonTon is basing his case purely on elocution. It's primarily Fletcher's hard-line and passionate attitude that I think we could do with somewhere in the management team.  

 

 

 

If he can convey that attitude by speaking well then more's the better. You *can* be a surly fucker and get your message across well, but James 'free hit' McFadden seems much of the former and not a lot of the latter. Fletcher seems positive, charismatic and capable of putting across good points with minimal confusion or Strachan-esque bellendery.

 

 

 

 

 

[Malcolm Malcolm]

5 minutes ago, Gordopolis said:

I don't think SpoonTon is basing his case purely on elocution. It's primarily Fletcher's hard-line and passionate attitude that I think we could do with somewhere in the management team.

The fact that he can speak well is still of value though as communication is vital to the success of any initiative. You *can* be a surly fucker and get your message across well, but James 'free hit' McFadden seems much of the former and not a lot of the latter. Fletcher seems positive, charismatic and capable of putting across good points with minimal confusion or Strachan-esque bellendery.

I agree with your first point, and I think the second point is basically irrelevant class anxiety.

Ally McCoist is probably the most genuinely eloquent (not just someone who sounds a bit Glasgow University) Scottish football figure of recent times and he's hardly a great manager.

[Jambomo]

3 hours ago, SpoonTon said:

There are also sections of the tartan army and sections of the media who are against the idea. And I think that this accounts for part of the reason why certain people at the SFA are against the idea. 

It's easier to dress up the idea as a 'look at what Iceland did' (i.e. help develop their own coaches while having the experience and skills of someone like Lagerback at the helm). I just get the impression that in the SFA's bubble there are those who think the idea is still a hard sell, and we'd need something to help with that. 

The media are usually against it because they want one of their "old Firm" pals in as much as the SFA are happy to appoint them.

The fans themselves, I don't think are against the idea of having a foreign manager now. They may have been shortly after Vogts but I certainly don't think the majority are now. Its just the lazy media's way of pushing their own candidates to the fore. 

[Gordopolis]

I agree with your first point, and I think the second point is basically irrelevant class anxiety.

Ally McCoist is probably the most genuinely eloquent (not just someone who sounds a bit Glasgow University) Scottish football figure of recent times and he's hardly a great manager.

I wouldn't see Fletcher as Scotland manager - certainly not right now anyway. But I think he could be of use in the management team.

 

P.S. I'm not bothered about whether Fletcher sounds 'posh' or not. What impresses me is that he gets his message across pithily and with no rambling or clichés

[eez-eh]

I can sort of understand why some people think that a national team’s managers should be that nationality (much as I don’t agree with it). It’s the ones who think that because Berti was bad we can’t ever have another foreigner who are genuinely fucking dense.

[swing_kinker]

1 hour ago, Dons_1988 said:

 

The ‘we tried foreign before and it didn’t work argument’ is possibly one of the dumbest things I’ve ever heard. They say it in England too and I find it absolutely baffling that it’s given any credence.

 

Yea I'd prefer Scottish but don't get that argument at all  so because one foreigner in a world full of them didn't work out that means there's no chance any others could do a job? Ridiculous?

[DA Baracus]

If we use the argument that a foreigner didn't work therefore we should never again hire a guy who isn't Scottish, then why would we ever appoint a Scottish manager again given the long, exhausting list of Scottish managers who have failed in the role?

I have zero preference as to the manager's nationality. As long as he's good I don't care where he's from.

[SpoonTon]

3 hours ago, Malcolm Malcolm said:

I'm not against the idea of having him on board but not as the manager. This post, however, is unmitigated pish. 'Speaks well' FFS, what next, elocution lessons for coaches? Alex Ferguson was and is borderline difficult to understand.

That's not at all what I meant by speaks well. I could, and probably should, have communicated that better (I'll see if Fletcher's giving out lessons).

I like the content of what he says. Of course, this is only a small part of what you'd like as part of the coaching team, but it was the content rather than the manner that I was meaning. I have been impressed by what he's had to say, and given his background and interest in coaching my wager would be that he's a guy that the SFA could be looking to invest in. 

[Guest DAVIDB69]

Strachan always failed the key decisive games so it’s a no to going back there

[Malcolm Malcolm]

1 hour ago, SpoonTon said:

That's not at all what I meant by speaks well. I could, and probably should, have communicated that better (I'll see if Fletcher's giving out lessons).

I like the content of what he says. Of course, this is only a small part of what you'd like as part of the coaching team, but it was the content rather than the manner that I was meaning. I have been impressed by what he's had to say, and given his background and interest in coaching my wager would be that he's a guy that the SFA could be looking to invest in. 

I feel bad now, but there's a tendency in Scotland to do what I thought you'd done (see the reaction to Stuart Armstrong having a middle-class accent and studying a couple of law modules at the Open University that he's since abandoned). I actually agree that Fletcher talks a lot of sense and is admirably on the front foot in terms of taking the national team seriously for a guy who enjoyed the career he did.