Next Scotland Manager

[RandomGuy.]

3 hours ago, DiegoDiego said:

I'd love a Scotland manager that consistently beats the lesser teams, the inability to do that is why the job's available in the first place.

Aye, but McInnes wouldn't be able to wait for England to sign Georgias star right winger, before signing him for us, in the National Job.

[DC92]

5 hours ago, DiegoDiego said:

14 hours ago, DC92 said:

McInnes' success at Aberdeen is largely based on him being allocated a relatively large budget and spending that on players with a track record in Scotland or the English lower leagues. His Aberdeen team have consistently finished high up the league because they consistently beat the teams worse than them (which is most of them).
There's nothing wrong with any of that, but those achievements don't really translate to being a good Scotland manager. He's never struck me as a particularly good tactician or someone who gets results when it really counts in big games.
Drawing conclusions based on Levein might seem lazy, but there a lot more parallels between him and McInnes than Vogts and most foreign managers. Levein in 2009 had built his reputation on consistent performances in the SPL either side of a failed spell in England, much like McInnes. Again, like McInnes, this was built on a smart transfer policy and consistent results against lesser teams, rather than tactical nous or the ability to get results in big games.
It's also easy to forget that Levein was a popular choice at the time. Probably about as popular as Clarke is this time (there was even the same chat about how he'd never take the job because of his previous run-ins with the SFA). Funny how things change.
As for Clarke, he's been able to get a squad of players playing well above their previous level without making many changes and he consistently gets results against "better" teams. These achievements translate much better to being a good Scotland manager than Levein's or McInnes' IMO. 

I'd love a Scotland manager that consistently beats the lesser teams, the inability to do that is why the job's available in the first place.

Fair, but there's a big difference between beating them more often than not over the course of a league season (enough to finish 2nd/3rd) and taking 16 or 18 points from 18 against the diddy teams in a qualifying campaign, which is what we need to be aiming for.

We already beat the lesser teams more often than not but usually don't trouble the better teams. That's enough for Aberdeen to finish 2nd or 3rd in the Scottish Premiership but it's not enough for Scotland to qualify for major tournaments.

[BFTD]

With regard to reputation within the English game, we might be overestimating how much clubs would care about a manager leading Scotland to the European Championships. McLeish managed to wangle his 'big move' to a Premiership club (Birmingham FFS) by running both World Cup finalists agonisingly close, and skooshing a World Cup quarter-finalist. I'd be surprised if managing to finish ahead of Russia, Kazakhstan, and Cyprus would get you much more than an offer from a Millwall or a Barnsley.

The bar for qualification has dropped so far that I reckon Steve Clarke would need to have a good showing at the tournament itself to get better offers than he could probably pick up already. So, fingers crossed  

[effeffsee_the2nd]

4 hours ago, DC92 said:

Fair, but there's a big difference between beating them more often than not over the course of a league season (enough to finish 2nd/3rd) and taking 16 or 18 points from 18 against the diddy teams in a qualifying campaign, which is what we need to be aiming for.

We already beat the lesser teams more often than not but usually don't trouble the better teams. That's enough for Aberdeen to finish 2nd or 3rd in the Scottish Premiership but it's not enough for Scotland to qualify for major tournaments.

we don't beat the lesser teams much away from home tho, that's our problem, still very much stuck in a losers mentality of " a point here will do us"

[DC92]

30 minutes ago, effeffsee_the2nd said:

we don't beat the lesser teams much away from home tho, that's our problem, still very much stuck in a losers mentality of " a point here will do us"

That's my point: we need someone who will take full points against the lesser sides, or at least make up for any dropped points by taking points off the better teams. McInnes has a decent record in beating the lesser sides more often than not for Aberdeen, but that's not necessarily evidence that he'd get us where we need to be.

[BFTD]

Kevin Kyle currently saying on Off The Ball that Steve Clarke would want to oversee changes at the SFA, other than just on the field with the Scotland team.

That'll be Clarke scunnered, then.

[Dons_1988]

That's my point: we need someone who will take full points against the lesser sides, or at least make up for any dropped points by taking points off the better teams. McInnes has a decent record in beating the lesser sides more often than not for Aberdeen, but that's not necessarily evidence that he'd get us where we need to be.

So McInnes would have to win 30 games out of 30 against non OF teams in a league season to meet your criteria?

[DC92]

1 minute ago, Dons_1988 said:

 

So McInnes would have to win 30 games out of 30 against non OF teams in a league season to meet your criteria?

 

Nope, I didn't set any criteria. If you look back through the conversation you'll see that someone suggested McInnes would be good because we don't beat the lesser teams enough. My point is that beating lesser teams more often than not over 38 games is not evidence that he'd take 100% of the points against lesser teams in a qualifying group, which is what we need to do.

[Kuro]

2 minutes ago, DC92 said:

Nope, I didn't set any criteria. If you look back through the conversation you'll see that someone suggested McInnes would be good because we don't beat the lesser teams enough. My point is that beating lesser teams more often than not over 38 games is not evidence that he'd take 100% of the points against lesser teams in a qualifying group, which is what we need to do.

It's also not evidence that he wouldn't.  You're overthinking this, he's a good manager so would do a good job.  You're drawing parallels that are impossible to make.

[Dons_1988]

Nope, I didn't set any criteria. If you look back through the conversation you'll see that someone suggested McInnes would be good because we don't beat the lesser teams enough. My point is that beating lesser teams more often than not over 38 games is not evidence that he'd take 100% of the points against lesser teams in a qualifying group, which is what we need to do.

The original point was correct though, his strength does lie in consistently beating lesser teams. This season aside our record hasn’t been that far behind Celtic in that regard. The fact that he doesn’t do it every game over a 38 game season is hardly evidence against him being able to do it in a 10 game qualifying group.

[DC92]

2 minutes ago, Kuro said:

It's also not evidence that he wouldn't.  You're overthinking this, he's a good manager so would do a good job.  You're drawing parallels that are impossible to make.

No, you're getting it arse over tit. I'm not using it as evidence that he wouldn't be able to do it, I'm saying (again) that being consistent over a league season for Aberdeen isn't necessarily evidence that he'd be able to improve our record against lesser teams.

1 minute ago, Dons_1988 said:

 

The original point was correct though, his strength does lie in consistently beating lesser teams. This season aside our record hasn’t been that far behind Celtic in that regard. The fact that he doesn’t do it every game over a 38 game season is hardly evidence against him being able to do it in a 10 game qualifying group.
 

 

It was me that made the original point about consistency being one of his strengths. I was disputing that that alone qualifies him to do the job. As I said in my original post, I'd say his consistency is based more on a smart signing policy than strong tactical nous or an ability to get players playing above their usual level. Clarke has achieved a similar consistency (albeit over a shorter time) with a squad of players who were battling relegation before. That gives me more confidence that he'd be a good choice.

[Kuro]

4 minutes ago, DC92 said:

No, you're getting it arse over tit. I'm not using it as evidence that he wouldn't be able to do it, I'm saying (again) that being consistent over a league season for Aberdeen isn't necessarily evidence that he'd be able to improve our record against lesser teams.

It was me that made the original point about consistency being one of his strengths. I was disputing that that alone qualifies him to do the job. As I said in my original post, I'd say his consistency is based more on a smart signing policy than strong tactical nous or an ability to get players playing above their usual level. Clarke has achieved a similar consistency (albeit over a shorter time) with a squad of players who were battling relegation before. That gives me more confidence that he'd be a good choice.

Yes but his record also isn't evidence that he wouldn't is my point.  Your making invalid inferences.

[DC92]

Just now, Kuro said:

Yes but his record also isn't evidence that he wouldn't is my point.  Your making invalid inferences.

Then your point doesn't contradict mine at all.

[Dons_1988]

It was me that made the original point about consistency being one of his strengths. I was disputing that that alone qualifies him to do the job. As I said in my original post, I'd say his consistency is based more on a smart signing policy than strong tactical nous or an ability to get players playing above their usual level. Clarke has achieved a similar consistency (albeit over a shorter time) with a squad of players who were battling relegation before. That gives me more confidence that he'd be a good choice.

A smart signing policy can translate into a smart selection policy And it’s more to do with getting a group of players to consistently perform at their level and occasionally above it. Several dons fans would take issue with you saying his signing policy is smart I’d imagine!

He also has the knack of gaining results in those games where the performance isn’t necessarily there either.

He isn’t a tactical genius but he’s not the shitebag some would have you believe either. I think he’d do absolutely fine as Scotland manager and be a significant improvement on mcleish anyway.

As it happens, I’m delighted we’ll not be finding out anytime soon.

[Kuro]

8 minutes ago, DC92 said:

Then your point doesn't contradict mine at all.

It wasn't an attempt to.  It was pointing out you're making spurious comparisons of no value to judging his suitability.

[DC92]

8 minutes ago, Dons_1988 said:

 

A smart signing policy can translate into a smart selection policy And it’s more to do with getting a group of players to consistently perform at their level and occasionally above it. Several dons fans would take issue with you saying his signing policy is smart I’d imagine!

He also has the knack of gaining results in those games where the performance isn’t necessarily there either.

He isn’t a tactical genius but he’s not the shitebag some would have you believe either. I think he’d do absolutely fine as Scotland manager and be a significant improvement on mcleish anyway.

As it happens, I’m delighted we’ll not be finding out anytime soon.

 

Aside from me being less enthusiastic about McInnes than you, we're not miles off being on the same page here.  The original point, made by someone else, was that McInnes was not comparable to Levein. I pointed out what I see as the parallels between McInnes and the 2009 version of Levein. That doesn't necessarily mean McInnes would be as big a failure as Levein, but I can see why the comparison was made in the first place.

1 minute ago, Kuro said:

It wasn't an attempt to.  It was pointing out you're making spurious comparisons of no value to judging his suitability.

It was someone else who made that comparison. I was the one denying the comparison.

[HibeeJibee]

Major historical revisionism from Tam Cowan on Sportsound.

Apparently all previous appointments since Craig Brown drew strong criticism - maybe except Walter Smith whom he omitted - but everyone agrees Steve Clarke is the best man.

I don't remember it like that... e.g. Levein and Burley were, like Clarke, welcomed and were the best/most competent/rising reputation available Scots at the time. Limiting yourself to Scots.

None except Vogts had any international experience, either.

Edited May 18, 2019 by HibeeJibee

[PerthTA]

Clarke's recent interview points to him getting the job on Monday or Tuesday. Need it pushed over the line with the double header imminent

[swing_kinker]

2 hours ago, HibeeJibee said:

Major historical revisionism from Tam Cowan on Sportsound.

Apparently all previous appointments since Craig Brown drew strong criticism - maybe except Walter Smith whom he omitted - but everyone agrees Steve Clarke is the best man.

I don't remember it like that... e.g. Levein and Burley were, like Clarke, welcomed and were the best/most competent/rising reputation available Scots at the time. Limiting yourself to Scots.

None except Vogts had any international experience, either.

 Burley was shat on from the moment he came in and it rubbed off on the public. What he wore at his presser was a huge issue for he red tops. It was a joke how he was treated 

Edited May 18, 2019 by swing_kinker

[morrison1982]

2 hours ago, HibeeJibee said:

Major historical revisionism from Tam Cowan on Sportsound.

Apparently all previous appointments since Craig Brown drew strong criticism - maybe except Walter Smith whom he omitted - but everyone agrees Steve Clarke is the best man.

I don't remember it like that... e.g. Levein and Burley were, like Clarke, welcomed and were the best/most competent/rising reputation available Scots at the time. Limiting yourself to Scots.

None except Vogts had any international experience, either.

Pretty sure McLeish was welcomed the first time, as well. He'd had a bad season to finish at Rangers, but he had a pretty good track record up to then and even that bad season didn't look so bad when Le Guen came in and made a right hash of it. Also there was a feeling that McLeish was a "safe pair of hands" to keep going with the momentum started by Smith in the Euro 2008 qualifiers.

Strachan was universally welcomed - the TA had put up a "Strachan SOS" banner at Levein's last game.