Policing at Football whitewash

[tumbleweed]

1 hour ago, Jim McLean's Ghost said:

15 hours ago, tumbleweed said:

As for such reports, what did you expect them to say - "we're sh!te and we know we are"? 

I think people would expect any report into policing to be honest. The fact you admit the police will never admit their own failings only underlines the point of those who refused to take part. The police are not fit to assess themselves.

Mmm...I actually asked what people thought they would say in the report, not that they would never admit their own failings. The report IS critical in parts but that's not good enough as by your answer, you have stated that the report is dishonest. Others have called it a whitewash. I have only read one person saying they have read it, so the inherent bias of some people cloud how they approach any such report and they would rather sit sniping from the sidelines rather than have an input. A report which cannot speak to all sides cannot by definition be fully inclusive, but whose fault is that? Not wanting to take part in discussions concerning fan safety because some Celtic fans are involved is mind-blowing, as is the constant references by fans groups to the behaviour of OTHERS, never, ever themselves. It seems some are completely incapable of discussing points without referring to their opposite numbers because it is all one big conspiracy allowing the authorities to pursue their anti-Catholic AND anti-Protestant agenda. Whenever the police/government/SFA/SPFL raise their heads to try and get a consensus or even a sensible discussion about issues they are swallowed up by this p!sh and we never get anywhere because the OTHER side are always worse. 

If you read this thread, and others concerning offensive behaviour, few people seem to admit that they as fans might have some responsibility for what happens during a game, its all the fault of the police, stewards, the other supporters, 'thaim', and their grannies, but never them as an individual or collective. Fans groups, while representing their members, are seldom able to realise there is a bigger picture outside their own navel-gazing, Neanderthal nonsense and issue statements as if they have some divine right to do whatever they want. As far as I am aware, it wasn't a cop/steward/referee/linesman/MP/MSP that threw any of the articles we have seen recently, or created banners with offensive messages on them, or sung any songs they know to be offensive, despite claiming they are part of traditional self-expression - on each occasion it was a FAN or FANS. Someone who went to watch a game like many of us on here do, wanting to see our team win like we all do, but thinking that throwing a coin/bottle/swear word or offensive term is an extension of their support for their team and so cannot be criticised. If there were no such incidents there wouldn't be a continued spotlight on fan behaviour, but because there are such incidents then ALL  fans can expect to see the police and stewards be prepared to look for issues.

I know the police and stewards are not perfect and sometimes seem to be against fans who are doing little bar supporting their team  on the pitch, but  when the bottle at Easter Road or coin at Rugby Park could have come from anyone in a large crowd what do you expect the authorities to do if the person who did it isn't identified? The people round about them must have known who it was, but as usual no-one wants to take responsibility for this because its easier to blame the police/stewards/Stevie Clarke etc etc etc   Its sad but true and until we can control those idiots who cannot help themselves throwing articles, or religious slurs, or derogatory comments about someone's mother, or hanging effigies off stands, then be prepared for the authorities to decide what is and is not acceptable and take whatever action they think is necessary to address it. Its not ideal, but its hardly surprising.

 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, tumbleweed said:

Mmm...I actually asked what people thought they would say in the report, not that they would never admit their own failings. The report IS critical in parts but that's not good enough as by your answer, you have stated that the report is dishonest. Others have called it a whitewash. I have only read one person saying they have read it, so the inherent bias of some people cloud how they approach any such report and they would rather sit sniping from the sidelines rather than have an input. A report which cannot speak to all sides cannot by definition be fully inclusive, but whose fault is that? Not wanting to take part in discussions concerning fan safety because some Celtic fans are involved is mind-blowing, as is the constant references by fans groups to the behaviour of OTHERS, never, ever themselves. It seems some are completely incapable of discussing points without referring to their opposite numbers because it is all one big conspiracy allowing the authorities to pursue their anti-Catholic AND anti-Protestant agenda. Whenever the police/government/SFA/SPFL raise their heads to try and get a consensus or even a sensible discussion about issues they are swallowed up by this p!sh and we never get anywhere because the OTHER side are always worse. 

If you read this thread, and others concerning offensive behaviour, few people seem to admit that they as fans might have some responsibility for what happens during a game, its all the fault of the police, stewards, the other supporters, 'thaim', and their grannies, but never them as an individual or collective. Fans groups, while representing their members, are seldom able to realise there is a bigger picture outside their own navel-gazing, Neanderthal nonsense and issue statements as if they have some divine right to do whatever they want. As far as I am aware, it wasn't a cop/steward/referee/linesman/MP/MSP that threw any of the articles we have seen recently, or created banners with offensive messages on them, or sung any songs they know to be offensive, despite claiming they are part of traditional self-expression - on each occasion it was a FAN or FANS. Someone who went to watch a game like many of us on here do, wanting to see our team win like we all do, but thinking that throwing a coin/bottle/swear word or offensive term is an extension of their support for their team and so cannot be criticised. If there were no such incidents there wouldn't be a continued spotlight on fan behaviour, but because there are such incidents then ALL  fans can expect to see the police and stewards be prepared to look for issues.

I know the police and stewards are not perfect and sometimes seem to be against fans who are doing little bar supporting their team  on the pitch, but  when the bottle at Easter Road or coin at Rugby Park could have come from anyone in a large crowd what do you expect the authorities to do if the person who did it isn't identified? The people round about them must have known who it was, but as usual no-one wants to take responsibility for this because its easier to blame the police/stewards/Stevie Clarke etc etc etc   Its sad but true and until we can control those idiots who cannot help themselves throwing articles, or religious slurs, or derogatory comments about someone's mother, or hanging effigies off stands, then be prepared for the authorities to decide what is and is not acceptable and take whatever action they think is necessary to address it. Its not ideal, but its hardly surprising.

 

I agree with most of your post apart from the closing statement which I've highlighted, while it may sometimes seems like it, we don't live in a police state and I don't think it's acceptable that law abiding fans should be treated like scum due to the acts of a few cretins and frankly I'm shocked that you appear to be justifying this.

We're also kidding ourselves on if we think this can ever be completely eradicated as unfortunately it's just human nature where we'll always have flare ups (pardon the pun) and emotion sometimes gets the better of people.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not sticking up for any of this behaviour however as someone who watches lots of European leagues and has been at quite a few foreign matches I can tell you that "Scotlands shame" as it's put, is blown way out of all proportion by our media and that countries such as France, Spain,  Italy, Portugal, Germany and our cousins South of the border have much more problems with "behavioural issues" than ourselves, but of course they don't publicise and politicise  it in the way we do..............

Edited March 7, 2019 by WATTOO

[tumbleweed]

Wattoo -  you're shocked because you imagine I'm justifying something that I'm not.  If you think you live in a police state in modern day Scotland you really need to get out more, but what I was saying was that if we as supporters don't at least try to identify how to sort the problem out, or offer potential common ground between fans and authorities, then we shouldn't be surprised if they do it their way, which isn't likely to be pretty. Genuine question - how would you like the police to do their job?

If they adopt a laissez-faire attitude and just let fans do what they want  but this results in someone getting killed, will we be saying "oh that's a shame but its better than me as an individual getting filmed/searched/herded/told how to support my team?" Unlikely. In the opposite to a hands-off approach, would the Celtic fans who recently suffered violence from the police in Europe - or the fans of any club who report football related police brutality abroad  - prefer that every week or the Scottish approach, flawed though it might be?

You mention emotion and I imagine that most fans have experienced times when it has got the better of them at games, it certainly has happened to me, however I can genuinely say that I have never even considered throwing a coin or bottle or holding up an offensive banner or hanging an effigy off a stand, have you? That's not emotion, there's plenty of preparation involved in some of it, so we can't brush it all off as that. 

You are right regarding how our issues are reported and I would be surprised if Scottish journalists realise how parochial, patronising and often pea-brained they appear, but again you are making part of my point for me by venturing into international standard whataboutery in pointing to others and saying "aye but what about thaim, they're worse". Who cares? Why can't we look at our own issues without pointing to others? Probably because if P&B instituted a rule that threads would automatically close if anyone indulged in whataboutery, I would be quite confident most would shut almost immediately, particularly if it related to fan behaviour !!

[nsr]

If the police don't fancy wading into huge masses of OF fans, have they considered using tear gas?

[Flybhoy]

Clear and obvious threats here from Police Scotland and the guy who conducted the investigation into policing at Football who is .....er a policeman, from South Yorkshire police of all constabuleries, club loyalties aside, which most on here won't be able to drop given their dislike for the 'two cheeks' etc, people need to wake up and pay attention to shit like this because this is a warning and a threat to the civil liberties of all football fans from all clubs, the fact that they are able to spout stuff like this, unchallenged is nothing short of scandalous. 

[Dindeleux]

Clear and obvious threats here from Police Scotland and the guy who conducted the investigation into policing at Football who is .....er a policeman, from South Yorkshire police of all constabuleries, club loyalties aside, which most on here won't be able to drop given their dislike for the 'two cheeks' etc, people need to wake up and pay attention to shit like this because this is a warning and a threat to the civil liberties of all football fans from all clubs, the fact that they are able to spout stuff like this, unchallenged is nothing short of scandalous. 

Did they make any mention of the throwing or catching of mobile phones?

[GordonS]

11 hours ago, Jim McLean's Ghost said:

This is where the police disagree and why the report amounts to nothing.

The outcome of this report is that the Police are Fit for Purpose when it is clear there are major failing in the way they handle football operations.

The fact that they spent time digging into safety issues that have been known about for years since the majority of these incidents about safety certificates, amending capacities and unsafe temporary stands are from when Rangers were in the seaside league. Has it taken the police this long to act? If it has how an they ever call themselves fit for purpose?

In the report they do not engage local councils as to why there have been lapses in inspections and safety issues. They didn't bother talking to them at all.

In the wake of this report we have already seen two reports uncritically reporting the police position. Those journalists happened to be part of the review. There doesn't seem to be any declaration of this fro either Chris McLaughlin or Rebecca Gray. Or indeed any reason given why journalists were spoken to at all.

I already noted where the police are quick to congratulate themselves but make no mention of their failings. Rangers Europa League fixtures being one part. Outright ignoring the incident at Celtic Park is another unmentioned failure. How can anyone have any faith in this report?

I think people would expect any report into policing to be honest. The fact you admit the police will never admit their own failings only underlines the point of those who refused to take part. The police are not fit to assess themselves.

The fact is that journalists involved with the report are trying to pass it off as independent is unbelievable. Getting in an officer from another force is the absolute minimum the Police Scotland could do in terms of independence. It is still the police marking their own work.

 

The report says police operations are generally fit for purpose but there are a lot of recommendations for change, and some of them are pretty strong. I'd hope Police Scotland won't brush them off. I think it's a fair conclusion, there are problems with operations, highlighted in the report, but "unfit for purpose" is a pretty high bar and one I don't think Police Scotland comes near.

The safety of football grounds isn't a police responsibility, it's for local authorities, and the report is very clear that they're not fit for purpose. You say the problems have been known about for a long time, but I didn't know about them and I'm not sure how many people outside of that world did. Some of the examples are shocking, and I'm sure they didn't come up at the time. 

This review wasn't carried out by Police Scotland, it was by a senior officer from another country who has never worked in Scotland. He's also the most experienced officer in the UK in the policing of football. Whether you think that's too close is a matter of opinion, but given that he criticises almost everything - fan engagement, media engagement, training, governance, consistency and overall operational approach - in terms that are very strong for this kind of thing, suggests to me that he was impartial enough.

Also worth noting that there was a review panel of 7, none of whom worked in Scotland. You could criticise it for being a bit police-heavy, though.

The mention of successes wasn't just to say 'we're doing fine', it wasn't just providing information, it is clearly in the context of good practice that should be followed. Mostly they come in the form of case studies. That's completely typical for this type of report and to see it as back-slapping is missing the purpose. I saw mention of praise for what happened at the Rangers-Spartak Moscow game, but not mention of the previous match, as an example of the whitewash, but the Spartak match was one of those attended by the review team which is probably why it was mentioned.

It's a fair criticism that the review didn't get formal contributions from local authorities. From context they must have been in contact with FSOAS, but they're not listed among the contributors.

It's also definitely fair to criticise journalists who were contributors to the report for not mentioning that in their articles.

All-in-all you could fairly criticise the report in some ways, but writing it off as a "whitewash" is well over the top. 

[Killie87]

I agree with most folk that the police need to open up  to football fans, i think a lot (not all) the problems stem from who the match commander is, if their attitude towards fans is hostile from the start then id imagine the orders they pass down to your average cop are going to be hostile in nature, i also think FAC need to change their attitude and engage with the police, if they are saying the police are anti football fan and they are sticking by that view then we are going to go round in circles and still have this shite flinging contest in the future, both sides need to back out of their corners.

In regards about being filmed at a game i'm not that bothered, to ease the annoyance of some folk that don't like being filmed at a game i'd suggest the police inform us of cases how filming has been effective and stopped disorder.

 

Out of interest, maybe one of the "older" football fans who were kicking about in the 80's can tell me, what was policing back then like ?   It appeared then to have more organised fights and "mass disorder" especially down south, were the police like they are the now or more like their mainland european cousins who appear to be baton and riot shield friendly.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Suspect Device]

1 hour ago, Killie87 said:

I agree with most folk that the police need to open up  to football fans, i think a lot (not all) the problems stem from who the match commander is, if their attitude towards fans is hostile from the start then id imagine the orders they pass down to your average cop are going to be hostile in nature, i also think FAC need to change their attitude and engage with the police, if they are saying the police are anti football fan and they are sticking by that view then we are going to go round in circles and still have this shite flinging contest in the future, both sides need to back out of their corners.

In regards about being filmed at a game i'm not that bothered, to ease the annoyance of some folk that don't like being filmed at a game i'd suggest the police inform us of cases how filming has been effective and stopped disorder.

 

Out of interest, maybe one of the "older" football fans who were kicking about in the 80's can tell me, what was policing back then like ?   It appeared then to have more organised fights and "mass disorder" especially down south, were the police like they are the now or more like their mainland european cousins who appear to be baton and riot shield friendly.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I got the impression that the coppers back then enjoyed the fighting as much as the fans. Also in Dundee you got the choice of the cells or a kicking on the back of a van. Which was considerate of them.

Edited March 8, 2019 by Suspect Device

[Newbornbairn]

1 hour ago, Killie87 said:

 

 

Out of interest, maybe one of the "older" football fans who were kicking about in the 80's can tell me, what was policing back then like ?   It appeared then to have more organised fights and "mass disorder" especially down south, were the police like they are the now or more like their mainland european cousins who appear to be baton and riot shield friendly.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I remember the Police being far more confrontational and belligerent.  There was definitely a "them and us" attitude and you got the feeling they were there to kick the shit out of anyone who stepped out of line. Strathclyde Police in particular all seemed to be bloody huge and just their presence was intimidating.  At an East Fife game against Dundee in the 80s at Bayview I saw the Police wade in to a group of Dundee fans, pull two out then give them a helluva kicking. 

Nowadays I've laughed and joked with the Police on the way into grounds and there isn't the sense that they're actively looking for a fight any more. However, when you see 5 ft nothing Police lassies who probably weigh 7 stone in the rain, you have to wonder what good they'll be if things kick off. 

[Suspect Device]

I did notice that most of the coppers for our game against Rangers were of slightly bigger stature and wearing their riot gear uniform already (minus the helmets).

 

[tumbleweed]

12 hours ago, Flybhoy said:

Clear and obvious threats here from Police Scotland and the guy who conducted the investigation into policing at Football who is .....er a policeman, from South Yorkshire police of all constabuleries, club loyalties aside, which most on here won't be able to drop given their dislike for the 'two cheeks' etc, people need to wake up and pay attention to shit like this because this is a warning and a threat to the civil liberties of all football fans from all clubs, the fact that they are able to spout stuff like this, unchallenged is nothing short of scandalous.

Gees. Where to begin. 

Was it a surprise to you that one of the most experienced football commanders in Britain is.....er a policeman..and might have something constructive to say in a report he was commissioned to write? He did. A lot of it was critical. You've clearly not read it and have relied on the media to cherry pick a 'scandal' for you.

You think its 'scandalous' because he's saying if you don't like the way the police do things just now, then here are the alternatives which you might find are worse? Really?  Its not a threat, he's laying out what may be the alternative to their current approach.

Civil liberties seem only to work one way with some people and while your concern for all football fans from all clubs is laudable, I would be interested to know what you want the police to do, other than just let you act in whatever you or any other football supporter wants. Its easy to criticise, and sometimes its very easy to do so, but a workable alternative is seldom provided. Indeed, the conflict between FAC and the police is totally regrettable with each side seeing the other as 'the problem', but until both decide to sit down with the other to actually talk, then its never going to change and leaves the whole process going round in circles.

[killiekranky]

4 hours ago, Killie87 said:

I agree with most folk that the police need to open up  to football fans, i think a lot (not all) the problems stem from who the match commander is, if their attitude towards fans is hostile from the start then id imagine the orders they pass down to your average cop are going to be hostile in nature, i also think FAC need to change their attitude and engage with the police, if they are saying the police are anti football fan and they are sticking by that view then we are going to go round in circles and still have this shite flinging contest in the future, both sides need to back out of their corners.

In regards about being filmed at a game i'm not that bothered, to ease the annoyance of some folk that don't like being filmed at a game i'd suggest the police inform us of cases how filming has been effective and stopped disorder.

 

Out of interest, maybe one of the "older" football fans who were kicking about in the 80's can tell me, what was policing back then like ?   It appeared then to have more organised fights and "mass disorder" especially down south, were the police like they are the now or more like their mainland european cousins who appear to be baton and riot shield friendly.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Police in the 80's were bigger, badder, more numerous and almost completely untouchable.

Tactics used then couldn't be used today, beatings and random arrests are frowned upon these days.

 

[Guest]

13 hours ago, tumbleweed said:

Wattoo -  you're shocked because you imagine I'm justifying something that I'm not.  If you think you live in a police state in modern day Scotland you really need to get out more, but what I was saying was that if we as supporters don't at least try to identify how to sort the problem out, or offer potential common ground between fans and authorities, then we shouldn't be surprised if they do it their way, which isn't likely to be pretty. Genuine question - how would you like the police to do their job?

If they adopt a laissez-faire attitude and just let fans do what they want  but this results in someone getting killed, will we be saying "oh that's a shame but its better than me as an individual getting filmed/searched/herded/told how to support my team?" Unlikely. In the opposite to a hands-off approach, would the Celtic fans who recently suffered violence from the police in Europe - or the fans of any club who report football related police brutality abroad  - prefer that every week or the Scottish approach, flawed though it might be?

You mention emotion and I imagine that most fans have experienced times when it has got the better of them at games, it certainly has happened to me, however I can genuinely say that I have never even considered throwing a coin or bottle or holding up an offensive banner or hanging an effigy off a stand, have you? That's not emotion, there's plenty of preparation involved in some of it, so we can't brush it all off as that. 

You are right regarding how our issues are reported and I would be surprised if Scottish journalists realise how parochial, patronising and often pea-brained they appear, but again you are making part of my point for me by venturing into international standard whataboutery in pointing to others and saying "aye but what about thaim, they're worse". Who cares? Why can't we look at our own issues without pointing to others? Probably because if P&B instituted a rule that threads would automatically close if anyone indulged in whataboutery, I would be quite confident most would shut almost immediately, particularly if it related to fan behaviour !!

Since you've asked, I'd prefer if the Police dealt with the real problems as opposed to a blanket policy of "potentially every fan is a thug" way of thinking.

What gets me is the media coverage and huge furore over a couple of coin throwing incidents aimed at players, however for anyone who's visited the away end at Ibrox, you could almost recoup your admission money from the animals bombarding the away section throughout the match with coins, bottles, cups, lighters etc, etc. Now, I'm sure this must happen there every single week, however the cops just stand back and ignore it but are more inclined to wade in to the 6 young Stranraer fans noising up the East Fife young team etc which is what gets a lot of people, meanwhile it's complete carnage at an old firm game and it ends up with "two arrests for public order offences".

I'm not saying we're all full of angels in Scottish Football but as I mentioned earlier (and I know you don't like comparing but I feel in this instance we really should) we're pretty well behaved in a comparison with any league in Europe so I'd just be wary of making a mountain out of a molehill which of course we're damned good at in this country.............

[Ross.]

Difference in approach here compared to back home is a bit odd. If you are at a game here with a heavy police presence, the police are completely unapproachable. They'll be in their full riot gear, respond to nothing, and hit out if you don't follow their instructions. In the UK they are definitely more approachable but they tend to come across as incredibly arrogant and demeaning, which to me actually makes the problem worse, where here you simply follow the path they are setting and get to f**k out before being on the end of a dull one. I prefer the approach here in all honesty, though that really isn't saying much.

[scoobles]

Police in the 80's were bigger, badder, more numerous and almost completely untouchable.
Tactics used then couldn't be used today, beatings and random arrests are frowned upon these days.
 

Not always.
There were more than a few times I saw them wade in to arrest folk at Pittodrie, Dens,, Tannadice and Easter Road and get an absolute kicking.
Obviously they dealt out excessive retribution later for the unfortunates they managed to nab.

Today's police would run a mile from the mobs that went to fitba in the 70s and 80s.
Walking to the game on Sunday and the police were filming fans waiting at pedestrian crossings.
They would rather fit a face to an offence later rather than deal with it when it's happening.

[energyzone]

Clear and obvious threats here from Police Scotland and the guy who conducted the investigation into policing at Football who is .....er a policeman, from South Yorkshire police of all constabuleries, club loyalties aside, which most on here won't be able to drop given their dislike for the 'two cheeks' etc, people need to wake up and pay attention to shit like this because this is a warning and a threat to the civil liberties of all football fans from all clubs, the fact that they are able to spout stuff like this, unchallenged is nothing short of scandalous. 

You're seeing what you want to see, and what the chaps at FAC want you to be outraged by.

The DCC is explaining that the police have a job to do and do it in a certain way, e.g filming and using the footage to assist in future arrests. If they didn't do it that way then the alternative is to resort to violence to achieve the arrests.

In no way is he saying that's what the police want to do or that it's in any way likely to happen.

I note so far on this thread that nobody at all has suggested any reasonable and practical solutions to any of the problems the police have to deal with at matches, other than to bizarrely be less heavy handed while at the same time stop simply observing offences and do something about them.

[tumbleweed]

I've asked twice on this thread for people to explain how they want the police to police them at the football, but other than a request that they deal with the real problem rather than suspecting everyone of being a thug, there have been precisely no suggestions. Unfortunately some fans are the real problem - no-one else is throwing things or jumping over the hoardings to have a go at players like we saw tonight -  and while its easy to point and throw stones, literally and figuratively,  its not so easy to suggest an alternative. 

I totally understand and accept that the police could do their job better, as I am sure employees of every organisation could, but there needs to be a reasonable alternative before change takes place and if fans organisations such as FAC won't sit down and give their point of view, then it can't be a surprise to them that they are not taken seriously by the authorities. I've spoken to Jeanette Findlay and think she and her organisation have something to add which could benefit fans, but sadly she is jumping up and down outside the window shouting obscenities at those inside, when she could have a seat at the table and influence change from the table. I read her being quoted as saying that Police Scotland "view fans as criminals and potential sources of disorder and that’s a problem for us on an ongoing basis" and she's at least partially right, as I said above.

 

Edited March 8, 2019 by tumbleweed

[The_Kincardine]

53 minutes ago, tumbleweed said:

I've spoken to Jeanette Findlay and think she and her organisation have something to add which could benefit fans, but sadly she is jumping up and down outside the window shouting obscenities at those inside, when she could have a seat at the table and influence change from the table. I read her being quoted as saying that Police Scotland "view fans as criminals and potential sources of disorder and that’s a problem for us on an ongoing basis" and she's at least partially right, as I said above.

You're being an absolute fantasist here, mate.  McCabe's the name.  Policing's the game.

[bennett]

3 hours ago, energyzone said:

You're seeing what you want to see, and what the chaps at FAC want you to be outraged by.

The DCC is explaining that the police have a job to do and do it in a certain way, e.g filming and using the footage to assist in future arrests. If they didn't do it that way then the alternative is to resort to violence to achieve the arrests.

In no way is he saying that's what the police want to do or that it's in any way likely to happen.

I note so far on this thread that nobody at all has suggested any reasonable and practical solutions to any of the problems the police have to deal with at matches, other than to bizarrely be less heavy handed while at the same time stop simply observing offences and do something about them.

This, surprised that more people haven't saw through fac.