Pet Jeden Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 1 minute ago, 7-2 said: Even the statisticians know it's fishy. @Pet Jeden Grrrrrrrr...too quick for me! If my one fingered typing is too quick for you, you should seriously consider a check-up at your GP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
effeffsee_the2nd Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 Gents, I have no evidence whatsoever to back this up, it's just purely anecdotal, not saying that the draw is fixed but if it was. I THINK that the higher proportion of semi final derbys in the Scottish cup is Possibly down to a massive desire by the authority's to avoid the old firm derby being played on a Saturday with a 3pm KO. they haven't played at that time for years and years and there is a general feeling amongst the police ,the SFA and the wider public that the sunday lunchtime K.O , which has been the preferred one for this fixture since 2000 is the best time to minimise the trouble associated with this game. not just at the stadium but across the country. This isn't an issue for the league cup because that final can be played at any time to suit TV and its played in worse weather but the Scottish cup final has to be played at the tradition Saturday time. semi's on the other hand can also be moved to safer times. I don't think there would be much appetite for a mid afternoon k.o at the start of summer, with the potential for all day drinking and then have a Saturday evening across Scotland full of both pished up triumphiant revellers and sore losers. I'm not saying this is what they DO do but if they do I am supposing there attitude is not to interfere unless both get to a semi then draw them against each other so theyr not inn the final Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7-2 Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 24 minutes ago, Pet Jeden said: If my one fingered typing is too quick for you, you should seriously consider a check-up at your GP A moments self-doubt about the spelling meant a quick visit to Google translate to make sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Master Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 17 minutes ago, effeffsee_the2nd said: Gents, I have no evidence whatsoever to back this up, it's just purely anecdotal, not saying that the draw is fixed but if it was. I THINK that the higher proportion of semi final derbys in the Scottish cup is Possibly down to a massive desire by the authority's to avoid the old firm derby being played on a Saturday with a 3pm KO. they haven't played at that time for years and years and there is a general feeling amongst the police ,the SFA and the wider public that the sunday lunchtime K.O , which has been the preferred one for this fixture since 2000 is the best time to minimise the trouble associated with this game. not just at the stadium but across the country. This isn't an issue for the league cup because that final can be played at any time to suit TV and its played in worse weather but the Scottish cup final has to be played at the tradition Saturday time. semi's on the other hand can also be moved to safer times. I don't think there would be much appetite for a mid afternoon k.o at the start of summer, with the potential for all day drinking and then have a Saturday evening across Scotland full of both pished up triumphiant revellers and sore losers. I'm not saying this is what they DO do but if they do I am supposing there attitude is not to interfere unless both get to a semi then draw them against each other so theyr not inn the final Fucking hell, THE DRAWS ARE NOT FIXED. If they were, how do you explain not one single "guest" spilling the beans by now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 John Robertson in today's Scotsman saying there's a good chance Inverness v Hearts SF would be at ER. By which he means virtually no chance, presumably? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pet Jeden Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 8 hours ago, The Master said: Fucking hell, THE DRAWS ARE NOT FIXED. If they were, how do you explain not one single "guest" spilling the beans by now? That's now. Since we've had live, televised draws the OF have been drawn together lots. But from when crowds collapsed in the early 60's until televised draws in the late 80's they somehow avoided each other spectacularly in semi draws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Master Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 11 hours ago, Pet Jeden said: That's now. Since we've had live, televised draws the OF have been drawn together lots. But from when crowds collapsed in the early 60's until televised draws in the late 80's they somehow avoided each other spectacularly in semi draws. I did say "are" not fixed, i.e. meaning now and future. It's one of those classic situations: "draws are fixed to keep the 'Old Firm' apart'; <draw keeps them apart>; "SOMEONE DIDN'T GET THE MEMO/IS GETTING FIRED/WHAT ARE THE CHANCES" (as a serious comment, not a joke). It's something that'll never be broken because whether they are or aren't drawn together people will use it as confirmation of a conspiracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7-2 Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 On 07/03/2019 at 14:52, The Master said: Fucking hell, THE DRAWS ARE NOT FIXED. If they were, how do you explain not one single "guest" spilling the beans by now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pet Jeden Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 On 07/03/2019 at 14:52, The Master said: Fucking hell, THE DRAWS ARE NOT FIXED. If they were, how do you explain not one single "guest" spilling the beans by now? Any idea who actually took part in the pre-TV draws and their relationship to Celtic/Rangers ? I don't. Presumably most people who were senior enough to be involved in 1960's draws would by now be senile or dead. In the later years, maybe the saintly Jim Farry would have been involved ? I get what you say about how do you keep something like that secret. But,unlike the moon landings where hundreds of people would have to have been in on any conspiracy, a quick cup draw of 4 teams, held by a few people in private in the SFA's offices - and with those involved maybe genuinely believing that they were doing the best thing for Scottish football - well, that's not so hard to imagine. 30 years from now, people will look back and wonder how on earth Scottish football meekly accepted the farce of all their refs for the top league coming from Greater Glasgow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 They were generally drawn by the SFA Council, the SFL Management Committee or the Glasgow FA office bearers in the midweek following QFs. Body in question then debated on dates and venues. Certainly in the 1950s & 1960s direct quotes and details of these discussions, often descending into arguments, appear in the papers indicating press was admitted - but of course the physical cup draw itself isn't described. It is worth saying that at least some Scottish League and Glasgow FA officials were the same people - Fred Denovan and Tommy Maule, SFL secretaries 1947-1970 and 1970-79 respectively, simultaneously served as secretary of the Glasgow FA. Maule had been Denovan's assistant since 1949 and when Denovan died Campbell Ogilvie became assistant to Maule. He was dismissed after refusing to resign (at that time he was unassisted as Ogilvie had moved to Rangers earlier in 1979) and later joined the abortive "Canadian National League". Jim Farry joined from SFA, returning in 1990. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H Wragg Posted March 10, 2019 Share Posted March 10, 2019 What was he being dismissed for?Draw fixing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted March 10, 2019 Share Posted March 10, 2019 2 hours ago, H Wragg said: What was he being dismissed for? Draw fixing? I'm not entirely sure. According to Bob Crampsey's book - and he is writing fairly sympathetically and only 11 years after the events occurred - Maule was asked to resign in January 1979. He says that "misgivings had been expressed for some time about the calibre of the day to day administration in the League office". He did not resign and had to be dismissed in May 1979. He refused a severance offer and took it to an industrial tribunal - but a few days later settlement was reached. It's extraordinary how long the paid administrative officials served for in those days. Willie McAndrew was SFL secretary from 1899 to 1947 (48 years) and Fred Denovan from 1947 to 1970 (23 years). Over at the SFA it was similar with JK McDowall serving from 1882 to 1928 (46 years), George Graham from 1928 to 1957 (29 years) and Willie Allan from 1957 to 1977 (20 years). If you combined Jim Farry's service at SFA, SFL then back to SFA it runs 1972 to 1999 (27 years but only 20 years as top-dog) and of course he was sacked after Cadete affair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacksgranda Posted March 10, 2019 Share Posted March 10, 2019 On 05/03/2019 at 22:42, Pet Jeden said: Were the group stages not seeded ? There can't have been many years when they were not both in the top 8 or so seeds. Not up until circa 1973 they weren't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted March 10, 2019 Share Posted March 10, 2019 2 hours ago, Jacksgranda said: Not up until circa 1973 they weren't. Basically never were:1946-47 to 1971-72, 1973-74 to 1976-77, 1981-82 and 1982-83 Division One clubs comprised Sections 1 to 4, and Division Two clubs comprised Sections 5 to 8. After the divisions expanded for 1955-56 the 2 promoted clubs stayed in that second bracket and bottom 5 or 6 clubs in the league contested a new Section 9. Its winner was drawn against a winner from Sections 5 to 8 for a place in QFs. Knockout rounds were two-legged until SFs and Final. After the Premier Division began a maximum of 3 top-tier clubs could feature in any section (but not 100% sure).1972-73Instead of distinct Division One and Division Two sections the top 32 were mixed together then seeded so there would be - approximately - 2 of each in every section. Top 2 qualified for a new Last 16... this extra round was retained for 1973-74 even though the sections went back to the old separation.1977-78 to 1980-81 Two-legged straight knockout, including SFs in 1980-81... these were retained for 1981-82 + 1982-83.1983-84Two-legged knockout... followed by 4 groups of 4... then two-legged Semi-Finals. All of them having made the groupstage, the top 4 from the previous season were seeded - one to each group.1984-85 to 2015-16 One-legged knockout, except SF two-legged until 1986-87.2016-17 onward Present format. There were some early procedural tweaks affecting QFs as it got going... they were one-legged in 1947-48 + 1948-49, and the draw was seeded (Division One clubs v Division Two clubs) in 1946-47 + 1947-48. Latter season this meant Division One = guaranteed home QF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacksgranda Posted March 11, 2019 Share Posted March 11, 2019 The only reason I mentioned 1973 was because that was when I left Scotland and I knew they weren't seeded before that and after that I lost touch with the format so wasn't sure. Although I didn't lose so much touch that I didn't make the 1976/77 Final... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bdu98196 Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 The SFA must have know the permutations days ago before the games were completed - so why are we still awaiting details on KO times. It was always going to be Celtic V Dons/Zombies and ICT V PT/Hertz - so media would see it as 1 bigger game than the other. Its not fecking hard to organise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.