Livi vs Saints - 9/3/19

[Cptn Hooch]

19 hours ago, EdinburghLivi said:

Looked like a foul on Brown for the St Johnstone goal. 

Thought that too....think the Saint's player drags him back and the ball looks like it comes off Brown into the path of the goalscorer.

[Radford]

Some more (far too long) thoughts on yesterday. 

I thought the manager was well off course with his post-match stuff. Livingston were better in every department after they equalised and I'd hope on reflection, he'd feel that way and won't excuse the performance. It's no doubt hard playing against a packed defence and into that wind but it HAS to be better that what we offered. 

We didn't need Goss and then Wotherspoon sitting alongside the centre backs at times. That's hiding and not wanting to take the ball under pressure. I imagine opposition teams try and force us to use Shaughnessy and then push him into his left foot; we need to create a solution to that. Shaughnessy saw a lot of the ball but only ever had Tanser as a passing option, the movement from the midfield and forward players was terrible but when there was an option on, virtually every player was failing to complete simple passes.

Was therefore surprised when TW picked Wotherspoon and Swanson out as playing well. The former was as he usually is when shoehorned centrally and I thought the latter was really poor, absolutely nothing came off for him and he was one of the worst for taking up poor positions that didn't afford a passing option. Kennedy for about the first 15/20 minutes was the only attacking player that offered anything. 

The manager said after maybe the Hamilton or final Celtic game that he was going to seek some consistency in selection but he's given largely the same group 4 or 5 games now and even if there were a couple of decent performances in there, the one thing I did agree with from his interview was that if players aren't doing it they'll be coming out of the team.

The time for that is now and there could be some big casualties. This isn't about binning them for eternity but others have been patient and it'll now be up to some more established players to win a place back. 

You can't help but draw conclusions when we sign a player then lose 5 of the 6 games he starts. This isn't a new permanent signing you'd feel an obligation to stick with, Goss is a loan player and should now have to show his worth from the bench. Liam Craig had grown into his new role well and I think most fans were happy he got his new contract off the back of that. 

Murray Davidson shouldn't be undroppable and hopefully his substitution yesterday will serve as an indication of that. Callachan and Alston have their faults but can rightly feel they haven't been given a chance to improve our fortunes during this bad run. Usually one to scoff at rumours of fall outs, I do wonder if there is a contractual issue at play with Alston.

You could make cases for almost all of the attacking players needing a break and I wonder how close Hendry is to getting a chance? He maybe wouldn't carry the weight of expectation that is pulling down on those currently in possession of jerseys. At the moment, I'm not impressed by any of O'Halloran, Swanson, Watt or Kennedy. I actually think Kane has done alright but in terms of ability, he's not at the level of the others as a starting point. I thought Kennedy reacted well to having a spell on the bench in the autumn and he might thrive when introduced as fresh legs for a few weeks. 

And as for right back? Foster has been poor for weeks but we have no alternative. That's an issue more for the summer than now as a result but we could really do with him offering something even approaching average.

Appreciate very much that is tl;dr so apologies. 

[Mpire]

9 minutes ago, Radford said:

Some more (far too long) thoughts on yesterday. 

I thought the manager was well off course with his post-match stuff. Livingston were better in every department after they equalised and I'd hope on reflection, he'd feel that way and won't excuse the performance. It's no doubt hard playing against a packed defence and into that wind but it HAS to be better that what we offered. 

We didn't need Goss and then Wotherspoon sitting alongside the centre backs at times. That's hiding and not wanting to take the ball under pressure. I imagine opposition teams try and force us to use Shaughnessy and then push him into his left foot; we need to create a solution to that. Shaughnessy saw a lot of the ball but only ever had Tanser as a passing option, the movement from the midfield and forward players was terrible but when there was an option on, virtually every player was failing to complete simple passes.

Was therefore surprised when TW picked Wotherspoon and Swanson out as playing well. The former was as he usually is when shoehorned centrally and I thought the latter was really poor, absolutely nothing came off for him and he was one of the worst for taking up poor positions that didn't afford a passing option. Kennedy for about the first 15/20 minutes was the only attacking player that offered anything. 

The manager said after maybe the Hamilton or final Celtic game that he was going to seek some consistency in selection but he's given largely the same group 4 or 5 games now and even if there were a couple of decent performances in there, the one thing I did agree with from his interview was that if players aren't doing it they'll be coming out of the team.

The time for that is now and there could be some big casualties. This isn't about binning them for eternity but others have been patient and it'll now be up to some more established players to win a place back. 

You can't help but draw conclusions when we sign a player then lose 5 of the 6 games he starts. This isn't a new permanent signing you'd feel an obligation to stick with, Goss is a loan player and should now have to show his worth from the bench. Liam Craig had grown into his new role well and I think most fans were happy he got his new contract off the back of that. 

Murray Davidson shouldn't be undroppable and hopefully his substitution yesterday will serve as an indication of that. Callachan and Alston have their faults but can rightly feel they haven't been given a chance to improve our fortunes during this bad run. Usually one to scoff at rumours of fall outs, I do wonder if there is a contractual issue at play with Alston.

You could make cases for almost all of the attacking players needing a break and I wonder how close Hendry is to getting a chance? He maybe wouldn't carry the weight of expectation that is pulling down on those currently in possession of jerseys. At the moment, I'm not impressed by any of O'Halloran, Swanson, Watt or Kennedy. I actually think Kane has done alright but in terms of ability, he's not at the level of the others as a starting point. I thought Kennedy reacted well to having a spell on the bench in the autumn and he might thrive when introduced as fresh legs for a few weeks. 

And as for right back? Foster has been poor for weeks but we have no alternative. That's an issue more for the summer than now as a result but we could really do with him offering something even approaching average.

Appreciate very much that is tl;dr so apologies. 

St J going through a tough run as we did post Xmas. You'll be fine but feel the pain of having put together a great run and for no reason it then turns into a shocking run!

[crispy]

I think the game could’ve gone either way. Neither keeper had (m)any saves to make. 

Key moments: Lawson unlucky to hit post/great save; Davidson foul on Brown for 1-0; Davidson handball in box; Lithgow glancing header into our post for 2-0 Saints; Halkett header should’ve made it 3-1; Goss deflected free kick nearly snuck in; and Watt should’ve made it 2-2.  

I’m not going to pretend we didn’t get a wee bit of lucky alongside the graft. If St Johnstone had got a positive result do you think you’d have said ‘not our best but ground it out; classic away performance’? There really isn’t much between these teams on the park although St Johnstone would appear to have better firepower.

I thought Erskine and Lawson had a good game. I’m confused about Watt. When we played at the Mac before Xmas he was lively and tricky. I didn’t see that yesterday.

Interesting  how people (DR) see things differently re: Shaughnessey, “The central defender is a class act for St Johnstone and slamed home a superb opener...”.

[PauloPerth]

1 hour ago, Radford said:

Some more (far too long) thoughts on yesterday. 

I thought the manager was well off course with his post-match stuff. Livingston were better in every department after they equalised and I'd hope on reflection, he'd feel that way and won't excuse the performance. It's no doubt hard playing against a packed defence and into that wind but it HAS to be better that what we offered. 

We didn't need Goss and then Wotherspoon sitting alongside the centre backs at times. That's hiding and not wanting to take the ball under pressure. I imagine opposition teams try and force us to use Shaughnessy and then push him into his left foot; we need to create a solution to that. Shaughnessy saw a lot of the ball but only ever had Tanser as a passing option, the movement from the midfield and forward players was terrible but when there was an option on, virtually every player was failing to complete simple passes.

Was therefore surprised when TW picked Wotherspoon and Swanson out as playing well. The former was as he usually is when shoehorned centrally and I thought the latter was really poor, absolutely nothing came off for him and he was one of the worst for taking up poor positions that didn't afford a passing option. Kennedy for about the first 15/20 minutes was the only attacking player that offered anything. 

The manager said after maybe the Hamilton or final Celtic game that he was going to seek some consistency in selection but he's given largely the same group 4 or 5 games now and even if there were a couple of decent performances in there, the one thing I did agree with from his interview was that if players aren't doing it they'll be coming out of the team.

The time for that is now and there could be some big casualties. This isn't about binning them for eternity but others have been patient and it'll now be up to some more established players to win a place back. 

You can't help but draw conclusions when we sign a player then lose 5 of the 6 games he starts. This isn't a new permanent signing you'd feel an obligation to stick with, Goss is a loan player and should now have to show his worth from the bench. Liam Craig had grown into his new role well and I think most fans were happy he got his new contract off the back of that. 

Murray Davidson shouldn't be undroppable and hopefully his substitution yesterday will serve as an indication of that. Callachan and Alston have their faults but can rightly feel they haven't been given a chance to improve our fortunes during this bad run. Usually one to scoff at rumours of fall outs, I do wonder if there is a contractual issue at play with Alston.

You could make cases for almost all of the attacking players needing a break and I wonder how close Hendry is to getting a chance? He maybe wouldn't carry the weight of expectation that is pulling down on those currently in possession of jerseys. At the moment, I'm not impressed by any of O'Halloran, Swanson, Watt or Kennedy. I actually think Kane has done alright but in terms of ability, he's not at the level of the others as a starting point. I thought Kennedy reacted well to having a spell on the bench in the autumn and he might thrive when introduced as fresh legs for a few weeks. 

And as for right back? Foster has been poor for weeks but we have no alternative. That's an issue more for the summer than now as a result but we could really do with him offering something even approaching average.

Appreciate very much that is tl;dr so apologies. 

If the manager really picked out Wotherspoon as playing well then I despair. He was anonymous first half, then once Goss went off he dropped back and tried to be a playmaker in a pointless area passing it around with the centre halves. It was the easy option, play it around at the back against one Livi forward when we desperately needed to create something further up the park.

Agree about Goss. Talented passer but not what we need in there as we lose a lot of protection for the defence.  Craig was doing great previously as you say.  

Actually thought Swanson was okay without creating. He was squeezed out at times and seemed reluctant to take folk on, but he passed the ball around okay.  Nothing outstanding, but not bad. Him and Tanser don't have any kind of understanding unfortunately.

Think you're being harsh on Kennedy in lumping him in with Watt, MOH and Swanson.  He puts a shift in tracking back and still looks like our only creative or threatening player at times.

Agree completely about Callachan and Alston.  Dropped out the picture and given no chance of a start when players in front of them are not performing.

 

 

[7-2]

1 hour ago, Radford said:

And as for right back? Foster has been poor for weeks but we have no alternative.

Seeing more games now, Foster's distribution has been awful and he was again out jumped in the box for their second goal. Joe to right back and Gordon the centre is surely worth a try.

[Radford]

1 hour ago, crispy said:

If St Johnstone had got a positive result do you think you’d have said ‘not our best but ground it out; classic away performance’? There really isn’t much between these teams on the park although St Johnstone would appear to have better firepower.

I’m confused about Watt. When we played at the Mac before Xmas he was lively and tricky. I didn’t see that yesterday.

I really don't think the reaction would have been too different, even if Watt had scored, although I was halfway back to Perth when it happened so haven't seen it yet to judge how good a chance it was! The Lithgow header/subsequent squandering of the opportunity was a huge moment but your view is interesting, as it ties in with Tommy Wright, who hasn't much support for his comments. As I've said, I thought Livi were better in every department once they equalised and if Halkett had scored to make it 3-1, that would have been fair at the time. 

Watt has played well against Livi twice so that's why I thought he might start yesterday but generally, I think he's pretty overrated by our support. He lacks intelligence in his movement and has shown very little goalscoring instinct. I've no problems with his attitude or his work for the team but in terms of impactive quality, I think he's lacking.

A more general concern is who in the coaching staff can help him, and the other forwards, with that sort of stuff. Prepared to be shot down but I think the club could do worse than bring someone like Billy Dodds in on a part-time basis to work with the forwards. 

[RandomGuy.]

1 hour ago, crispy said:

 

Interesting  how people (DR) see things differently re: Shaughnessey, “The central defender is a class act for St Johnstone and slamed home a superb opener...”.

Theres a Saints fan who works there. I know if I worked there I'd be pumping out similar PR in the hope someone falls for it and signs him.

[RandomGuy.]

1 hour ago, 7-2 said:

Seeing more games now, Foster's distribution has been awful and he was again out jumped in the box for their second goal. Joe to right back and Gordon the centre is surely worth a try.

Shaughnessy wasnt any good at right back first time around.

Foster has been poor, but so has the whole team. Hes suffered since Wright was injured as Wright allowed him to take a bit of a risk going forward. Kennedy is probably the closest we have, but doesn't have the pace to get back if Foster ends up out of position. 

[Radford]

1 hour ago, PauloPerth said:

If the manager really picked out Wotherspoon as playing well then I despair. He was anonymous first half, then once Goss went off he dropped back and tried to be a playmaker in a pointless area passing it around with the centre halves. It was the easy option, play it around at the back against one Livi forward when we desperately needed to create something further up the park.

Agree about Goss. Talented passer but not what we need in there as we lose a lot of protection for the defence.  Craig was doing great previously as you say.

Actually thought Swanson was okay without creating. He was squeezed out at times and seemed reluctant to take folk on, but he passed the ball around okay.  Nothing outstanding, but not bad. Him and Tanser don't have any kind of understanding unfortunately.

Think you're being harsh on Kennedy in lumping him in with Watt, MOH and Swanson.  He puts a shift in tracking back and still looks like our only creative or threatening player at times.

Totally agree about Wotherspoon (yesterday) and Goss (in general). 

Maybe I'm looking for the Swanson that left us but he lost the ball a lot yesterday for me and so often when Shaughnessy or Tanser had the ball was never in position for a pass, despite asking for the ball. We had a bit of joy in behind Brown early on but Swanson was never in the opposite area against Gallagher. 

In saying that, and tied in with what I said about Kennedy, I'd give Swanson another go next weekend. I still like Kennedy but he's below the level he set at the end of the year. I remember his impact off the bench away at Motherwell and just feel it might suit him to be introduced like that again for a week or two. 

[Valentino Bolognese]

1 hour ago, PauloPerth said:

If the manager really picked out Wotherspoon as playing well then I despair. He was anonymous first half, then once Goss went off he dropped back and tried to be a playmaker in a pointless area passing it around with the centre halves. It was the easy option, play it around at the back against one Livi forward when we desperately needed to create something further up the park.

Agree about Goss. Talented passer but not what we need in there as we lose a lot of protection for the defence.  Craig was doing great previously as you say.  

Actually thought Swanson was okay without creating. He was squeezed out at times and seemed reluctant to take folk on, but he passed the ball around okay.  Nothing outstanding, but not bad. Him and Tanser don't have any kind of understanding unfortunately.

Think you're being harsh on Kennedy in lumping him in with Watt, MOH and Swanson.  He puts a shift in tracking back and still looks like our only creative or threatening player at times.

Agree completely about Callachan and Alston.  Dropped out the picture and given no chance of a start when players in front of them are not performing.

 

 

Agree 100% with you Paulo. 

I rather like Goss but agree he's not what we need. 

Matty Kennedy and Jason Kerr are the only players in the St Johnstone team right now that I think we can be happy with. Radford, I don't understand why you don't rate him? As for the others Watt's an enigma right enough, Swanson for me should get to the end of the season and MOH hasn't had anywhere near the game time to make a judgement yet. 

Callachan, Alston and Craig should be the first names on the team sheet for modfield for the next game. Let's see if Tony can fire up front with Matty. I hope Easton can get back and replace Tanser, Gordon for Joe.

We have literally nothing to lose now. 

 

[Radford]

1 hour ago, 7-2 said:

Seeing more games now, Foster's distribution has been awful and he was again out jumped in the box for their second goal. Joe to right back and Gordon the centre is surely worth a try.

You pretty much give up being an attacking threat with Shaughnessy at right back but then you could maybe play Kennedy or O'Halloran in front of him and they wouldn't have such an onus on them to fill in when the full back (Foster) bombs on. The thought of JS with Alston or Wotherspoon ahead of him isn't an exciting one. 

As you say, Foster's distribution has been rank and it's exacerbated by him being determined to take on so much responsibility. Just do the basics, Richard.

He's definitely suffered for Wright's absence. 

The Sunday Mail take on Shaughnessy yesterday is amusing. I don't think he was that bad - and part of the reason he's attracting extra criticism is the contract issue - as the stuff with the ball was as much down to his teammates not giving him options as it was him but the portrayal of him as some sort of rock is well wide of the mark. 

[Radford]

5 minutes ago, Valentino Bolognese said:

Radford, I don't understand why you don't rate him (Kennedy)? 

I do rate him, even if that hasn't come across. I was a bit worried for a while earlier in the season when we had the first poor run but after that he was very good and a fit and on form Kennedy would definitely be involved I think, although the competition with Wright and the Swanson/O'Halloran we had previously would be intense and exciting. 

But at the moment, he's not come back from the winter break in the same form (remember him ripping the piss out of Dundee at Dens) and, as described above, I just think coming on fresh as a substitute might let him make a big impact and restore some confidence/form. It worked earlier in the season at Motherwell and set him off on a goalscoring run too. 

[RandomGuy.]

11 minutes ago, Radford said:

 

Maybe I'm looking for the Swanson that left us but he lost the ball a lot yesterday for me

The stats don't exist, and I cant remember, but I'm wondering if he is losing possession more this time around, or whether it's just a case that last time we had players around him willing to win the ball back "within a phase", rather than allowing a counter attack.

Craig used to play in behind him and almost fill in as cover for the left back when Swanson lost it, Goss just marks space in the centre of the park, while Wotherspoon runs through treacle then stands off the opponent. 

[Radford]

1 minute ago, RandomGuy. said:

The stats don't exist, and I cant remember, but I'm wondering if he is losing possession more this time around, or whether it's just a case that last time we had players around him willing to win the ball back "within a phase", rather than allowing a counter attack.

I think it was @PauloPerth who was absolutely on the money with his take on it, before yesterday anyway. He was coming on in games and trying to force things to make a big impact, rather than just playing his way into things with some simple passes.

Yesterday was obviously different with him getting a start (although it took him about 10 minutes to touch the ball) but I think it's an individual issue rather than a team one. 

[Radford]

Despite what I've said about some players, this is a mix of what I think the manager will do and what I'd like to see next weekend:

Clark

Foster - Kerr - Shaughnessy - Tanser

Wotherspoon - Callachan - Craig - Swanson

Kane - Hendry

No idea who of Bell, Gordon, Goss, Davidson, Alston, Kennedy, O'Halloran and Watt you leave off the bench.

[tree house tam]

10 minutes ago, Radford said:

Despite what I've said about some players, this is a mix of what I think the manager will do and what I'd like to see next weekend:

Clark

Foster - Kerr - Shaughnessy - Tanser

Wotherspoon - Callachan - Craig - Swanson

Kane - Hendry

No idea who of Bell, Gordon, Goss, Davidson, Alston, Kennedy, O'Halloran and Watt you leave off the bench.

That side isn't good enough for me. In fact I'd be fucking raging if Tommy put that out, I'm fucking raging just thinking about it!!

[RandomGuy.]

If Wotherspoon doesn't get dropped, considering his recent form and those sitting on the bench, I'll be absolutely seething. 

[tree house tam]

1 minute ago, RandomGuy. said:

If Wotherspoon doesn't get dropped, considering his recent form and those sitting on the bench, I'll be absolutely seething. 

This is probably one of the first times I'll be the same as you, raging seething fucking mess I'll be.

[Radford]

4 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

If Wotherspoon doesn't get dropped, considering his recent form and those sitting on the bench, I'll be absolutely seething. 

Manager thought he did alright yesterday remember! I think he's had an alright season when played out wide and offers a bit more protection to Foster than anyone else. And yes, I remember that the pair of them looked like they'd never met before in the Hibs game.