GordonS Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 2 minutes ago, Rodhull said: What's going on with the Labour MP who got done for lying about driving a car while it commited an offence? Is there going to be a by-election for her seat? She said she's not going to resign, and she would only have been automatically booted if she'd been sentenced to more than a year. But yeah, she won't be voting on anything while she's inside. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fullerene Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 29 minutes ago, NewBornBairn said: Parties are an affront to democracy, and whips are an absolute outrage. A constituency elects an MP to represent them in Westminster and to act in the best interests of constituents. It's fundamentally undemocratic for Party Whips to try and force an MP into voting against the wishes of their constituents. Political parties exist for the same reason that trade unions exist or even why the EU exists. Acting as a bloc, you are more likely to achieve something than if everyone has their own opinion on everything. Thus, you reach a consensus on which way you want to go on an issue, and obviously it means compromise but sheer weight of numbers makes it more likely to succeed. Thus, for example, most Tory MPs are against a hard Brexit so therefore the party is moving in that direction. Oops, bad example. Try again. The Labour party had a conference where it was agreed by a majority of members that if all other options failed, it would push for a second EU referendum. Oops, another bad example. Anyway. I am sure you get what I mean. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dorlomin Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 1 minute ago, Fullerene said: Acting as a bloc, you are more likely to achieve something than if everyone has their own opinion on everything. Thus, you reach a consensus on which way you want to go on an issue, and obviously it means compromise but sheer weight of numbers makes it more likely to succeed. Laudable but its really about funding, party name recognition and the organisational structure that the party can bring. This generally crushes good local independents except in extraordinary cases. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detournement Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 9 minutes ago, dorlomin said: Probably not. Its only an automatic expulsion if you get sent down for 12 months (she got 3) and in Peterborough and her majority is 600. All those demanding by elections for this and that are a bit quiet on that one. Everyone including the Labour Party has said she should have a by election. She is brass necking it for the money. No one can stop her and she'll crawl under a rock when Parliament is dissolved. This is completely different. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeTillEhDeh Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 Interesting to read the statements of these MP's. They simply confirm that our 2 main parties have been hijacked by extremists. In the red corner we have Labour, controlled by the fanatics of Momentum and their acolytes. Defined by a singular lack of 21st century Realpolitik and their love of madcap 1920's socialism. If you're not with them, you're not true Labour. In fact, you're a 'traitor'. And in the blue corner we have the Tories, controlled by...well, the utter scumbags that have always been Tories but now see the chance to smear the country with their own poisonous brand of right-wing xenophobia. If you're not with them, you're not a true Tory. In fact, you're a 'traitor'. So where does that leave the many millions that are neither true socialists, or Kipper extremists ? Without a true political home it would seem...in England at least. Interesting times. The final straw for Soubry was apparently asking to speak to May only to be told that she should speak to someone else - then to see JRM and the rest of the ERG cabal troop in to Number 10.John Major is absolutely right that the Brexit debate has been hijacked by the extremists. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeTillEhDeh Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 Political parties exist for the same reason that trade unions exist or even why the EU exists. Acting as a bloc, you are more likely to achieve something than if everyone has their own opinion on everything. Thus, you reach a consensus on which way you want to go on an issue, and obviously it means compromise but sheer weight of numbers makes it more likely to succeed. Thus, for example, most Tory MPs are against a hard Brexit so therefore the party is moving in that direction. Oops, bad example. Try again. The Labour party had a conference where it was agreed by a majority of members that if all other options failed, it would push for a second EU referendum. Oops, another bad example. Anyway. I am sure you get what I mean.The problem with modern political parties is that externally they appear to be "democratic" but in practice it's wee cliques that control everything. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fullerene Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 3 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said: 16 minutes ago, Fullerene said: Political parties exist for the same reason that trade unions exist or even why the EU exists. Acting as a bloc, you are more likely to achieve something than if everyone has their own opinion on everything. Thus, you reach a consensus on which way you want to go on an issue, and obviously it means compromise but sheer weight of numbers makes it more likely to succeed. Thus, for example, most Tory MPs are against a hard Brexit so therefore the party is moving in that direction. Oops, bad example. Try again. The Labour party had a conference where it was agreed by a majority of members that if all other options failed, it would push for a second EU referendum. Oops, another bad example. Anyway. I am sure you get what I mean. The problem with modern political parties is that externally they appear to be "democratic" but in practice it's wee cliques that control everything. I am not sure they are all that bothered about the democratic aspect of things. The only one concerned with doing what the majority of members want is Jeremy Corbyn albeit only when the majority of members want what he wants. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crùbag Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 They're a bunch of snakes. If they have the courage of their convictions they should stand down and force by-elections. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael W Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 1 hour ago, GordonS said: Each of the 11 are in different positions. For Berger, as you say, Labour will win in Liverpool come what may. I doubt she'd have the personal vote to win as an independent. But her constituency party were almost certainly going to deselect her, so she had little to lose. There's a lot of cynicism around, but I don't see a reason to doubt the fact that these MPs would rather lose their seats than continue in parties that have moved towards the harder edges in recent years. Completely agree with that - have had enough and are content to go their separate ways from their party. I completely support them for doing so. The real problem here is those who continue to suffer crap under some nonsense guise of "party unity/loyalty" to a party that couldn't care less about them. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 If TIG starts taking off I could see May and Corbyn getting together to call a snap General Election to f**k them up before they're ready. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotThePars Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 Got to respect Bob Mahelp taking the Independent Group at their word. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotThePars Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 The final straw for Soubry was apparently asking to speak to May only to be told that she should speak to someone else - then to see JRM and the rest of the ERG cabal troop in to Number 10.John Major is absolutely right that the Brexit debate has been hijacked by the extremists.Soubz was probably drunk and talking into the mirror. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 Have to say I prefer the Tory rebels to the Labour ones. Soubry might be unpopular on here but the Labour gang just seem like bitter neo-cons cheated out of their rightful place at the head of the party. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Angelo Barksdale Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 It's going to be fucking delicious watching this whole thing crash and burn. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 2 hours ago, dorlomin said: That is not what a representative democracy is. That is a system where you elect people to represent you in an assembly rather than vote directly yourself. Indepents are able to win seats in the UK parliament https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blaenau_Gwent_(UK_Parliament_constituency)#Elections_in_the_2000s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatton_(UK_Parliament_constituency)#Elections_in_the_1990s People elect MPs not parties that is why dissenters like Corbyn could stand for Blairs manifesto. They are entitled to sit in parliament by law. Tantrums from Corbyn and friends not withstanding. Whats more I do not see how having three more Brexiters on the Tory benches would make the future of this country more secure, while retaining 3 anti Brexit seats and having something to pull against May's fuckwittery works for me. I doubt any of the parties want a GE right now with things so up in the air as a Centerist Look-at-me party on a second referendum and possibly proportional representation ticket would create a huge unknown. I suspect the two main parties want to get Brexit done then hope they fade in a year or two after. you are so desperate to disagree with me you’re reduced to talking nonsense. Parliamentary representation = representative democracy. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doulikefish Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 Reading Soubrys comments is interesting regarding what is happening at grassroots in the tory party.Basically saying that right wing brexit types are taking over 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 1 minute ago, doulikefish said: Reading Soubrys comments is interesting regarding what is happening at grassroots in the tory party.Basically saying that right wing brexit types are taking over Kipper entryists. Quote If you’re not already a member of the Conservative Party, we strongly encourage you to first click here and sign up https://leave.eu/deselect-your-remainer-tory-mp/ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DA Baracus Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 I for one will be shocked when it turns out that this new party will be more of the same 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotThePars Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 (edited) 45 minutes ago, welshbairn said: Have to say I prefer the Tory rebels to the Labour ones. Soubry might be unpopular on here but the Labour gang just seem like bitter neo-cons cheated out of their rightful place at the head of the party. I will give her credit for doing it. I just dislike the attempt to whitewash her abysmal voting record outside of Brexit. Even then, until now, she was perfectly willing to back a Tory government and PM who she allegedly had no time for. Did Heidi Allen leave? The one who done the tour of Britain and realised she'd voted for hundreds of policies that made people's lives miserable and hopeless. Edited February 20, 2019 by NotThePars 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTJohnboy Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 54 minutes ago, welshbairn said: Have to say I prefer the Tory rebels to the Labour ones. Soubry might be unpopular on here but the Labour gang just seem like bitter neo-cons cheated out of their rightful place at the head of the party. I'd have to say the same and it worries me just a little. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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