Detournement Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 According to a New Statesman article Chuka has photographs of himself with Macron and Trudeau on his mantelpiece. Unlucky ya melt. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 2 minutes ago, NewBornBairn said: And that right there is the cancer of tribalism that repeatedly fucks this country up. It’s not tribalism. We live in a representative democracy, for such a system to function political parties are necessary. Oppossing that system is legitimate but begs for he question of what you replace it with. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbornbairn Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 Parties are an affront to democracy, and whips are an absolute outrage. A constituency elects an MP to represent them in Westminster and to act in the best interests of constituents. It's fundamentally undemocratic for Party Whips to try and force an MP into voting against the wishes of their constituents. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 3 minutes ago, NewBornBairn said: Parties are an affront to democracy, and whips are an absolute outrage. A constituency elects an MP to represent them in Westminster and to act in the best interests of constituents. It's fundamentally undemocratic for Party Whips to try and force an MP into voting against the wishes of their constituents. ^^^^ idiot found 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbornbairn Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 Under the Party system, a government with a working majority can do pretty much whatever it wants. They don't have to justify a decision, they just have to ensure the voting fodder go through the right lobby. Increasingly this is done by creating junior minister and PPS positions for MPs - positions they lose if they vote against government. The only time this breaks down in the Party system is with MPs who are standing down anyway and have nothing to lose or with MPs who have an exceptional standing in a safe seat who can afford to go against government. If we had (say) 400 independent MPs in Westminster, Government would have to justify their decisions, explain why they're doing it, take into account objections and ultimately win the argument to persuade MPs to support them. That sounds pretty healthy to me. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bob Mahelp Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 Interesting to read the statements of these MP's. They simply confirm that our 2 main parties have been hijacked by extremists. In the red corner we have Labour, controlled by the fanatics of Momentum and their acolytes. Defined by a singular lack of 21st century Realpolitik and their love of madcap 1920's socialism. If you're not with them, you're not true Labour. In fact, you're a 'traitor'. And in the blue corner we have the Tories, controlled by...well, the utter scumbags that have always been Tories but now see the chance to smear the country with their own poisonous brand of right-wing xenophobia. If you're not with them, you're not a true Tory. In fact, you're a 'traitor'. So where does that leave the many millions that are neither true socialists, or Kipper extremists ? Without a true political home it would seem...in England at least. Interesting times. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bob Mahelp Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 Just now, NewBornBairn said: If we had (say) 400 independent MPs in Westminster, Government would have to justify their decisions, explain why they're doing it, take into account objections and ultimately win the argument to persuade MPs to support them. That sounds pretty healthy to me. Proportional representation you mean ? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbornbairn Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 Just now, Bob Mahelp said: Proportional representation you mean ? No - just independent MPs with no formal party affiliations, who do as their electorate instruct them, not a Party Whip. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 3 minutes ago, NewBornBairn said: Parties are an affront to democracy, and whips are an absolute outrage. A constituency elects an MP to represent them in Westminster and to act in the best interests of constituents. It's fundamentally undemocratic for Party Whips to try and force an MP into voting against the wishes of their constituents. I couldn't disagree with this in the literal sense, however our political system works differently in practice and the majority rightly or wrongly are voting for a party rather than a person. My problem here is that we had an election in June 2017 and all these defectors from both parties were happy enough to stand under their party banners at this time, by their own admission they already despised the very policies and parties that they were representing, which in my book makes them untrustworthy and disingenuous, if they were now to stand down and trigger by elections in which they were to stand as independents then that's a different matter, however at the moment I feel that they really have no mandate........... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dorlomin Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Granny Danger said: It’s not tribalism. We live in a representative democracy, for such a system to function political parties are necessary. That is not what a representative democracy is. That is a system where you elect people to represent you in an assembly rather than vote directly yourself. Indepents are able to win seats in the UK parliament https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blaenau_Gwent_(UK_Parliament_constituency)#Elections_in_the_2000s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatton_(UK_Parliament_constituency)#Elections_in_the_1990s People elect MPs not parties that is why dissenters like Corbyn could stand for Blairs manifesto. They are entitled to sit in parliament by law. Tantrums from Corbyn and friends not withstanding. Whats more I do not see how having three more Brexiters on the Tory benches would make the future of this country more secure, while retaining 3 anti Brexit seats and having something to pull against May's fuckwittery works for me. I doubt any of the parties want a GE right now with things so up in the air as a Centerist Look-at-me party on a second referendum and possibly proportional representation ticket would create a huge unknown. I suspect the two main parties want to get Brexit done then hope they fade in a year or two after. Edited February 20, 2019 by dorlomin 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross. Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 4 hours ago, ICTChris said: the real gap in British poltics is for a "Fund Our NHS, Hang the Paedos" Party. Would certainly be a refreshing change to the long standing "Hang the NHS, Fund the Paedo's" approach Westminster has taken. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bob Mahelp Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 Just now, NewBornBairn said: No - just independent MPs with no formal party affiliations, who do as their electorate instruct them, not a Party Whip. OK, with you. That's unlikely to happen though (read :impossible). The closest thing we can get to your...not unreasonable....suggestion is PR. Westminster politics as we know it is a failure, and has died. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 5 minutes ago, Bob Mahelp said: Interesting to read the statements of these MP's. They simply confirm that our 2 main parties have been hijacked by extremists. In the red corner we have Labour, controlled by the fanatics of Momentum and their acolytes. Defined by a singular lack of 21st century Realpolitik and their love of madcap 1920's socialism. If you're not with them, you're not true Labour. In fact, you're a 'traitor'. And in the blue corner we have the Tories, controlled by...well, the utter scumbags that have always been Tories but now see the chance to smear the country with their own poisonous brand of right-wing xenophobia. If you're not with them, you're not a true Tory. In fact, you're a 'traitor'. So where does that leave the many millions that are neither true socialists, or Kipper extremists ? Without a true political home it would seem...in England at least. Interesting times. It doesn't confirm anything other than this is a carefully orchestrated plot in order to form a new centrist party. I wonder who's pulling their strings........... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bob Mahelp Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 Just now, WATTOO said: It doesn't confirm anything other than this is a carefully orchestrated plot in order to form a new centrist party. I wonder who's pulling their strings........... As a fairly casual observer, and not a supporter of Labour or the Tories, it confirms it to me. I won't be the only one. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbornbairn Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 400 is never going to happen, but 40-50 could be interesting. Look at the House of Lords, where the cross-benchers (independents) hold the balance of power. This is why successive governments hit problems in the HoL again and again because they fail to convince the cross-benchers to vote for them. It's also why both the Tories and Labour have been stuffing it with political appointees for years, to try and fix a majority. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 Just now, Bob Mahelp said: As a fairly casual observer, and not a supporter of Labour or the Tories, it confirms it to me. I won't be the only one. Call me a conspiracy theorist but we've been drip fed little teasers to make us think this for months, leading up to the BOOM. Surprise, here's the new party which will ride to the rescue and save us from those evil bolsheviks and evil facists. Forgive me if this all sounds a little too convenient and as if we might be getting played by an Alastair Campbell type character ?? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GordonS Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 3 hours ago, Michael W said: How much of these majorities are down to the party they represent rather than the individual? Each of the 11 are in different positions. For Berger, as you say, Labour will win in Liverpool come what may. I doubt she'd have the personal vote to win as an independent. But her constituency party were almost certainly going to deselect her, so she had little to lose. There's a lot of cynicism around, but I don't see a reason to doubt the fact that these MPs would rather lose their seats than continue in parties that have moved towards the harder edges in recent years. 1 hour ago, betting competition said: How many more conservative party MPs have to resign before the Conservative/DUP won't have a majority? 650 MPs in total - subtract 7 Sinn Fein, the speaker and the three deputy speakers, to leave 639 voting MPs. So the guaranteed winning line is 320. The Conservatives now have 314, and the DUP have 10. That makes it 324 v 315, for a working majority of 9. It would take five more Conservative MPs to cross the floor before the majority is gone. Lady Sylia Hermon is an independent unionist from Northern Ireland, and a remainer. She has supported the Withdrawal Agreement because of the backstop, she won't go with anything that risks a hard border on Ireland. Her vote can't be presumed either way. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamieThomas Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 12 minutes ago, Bob Mahelp said: In the red corner we have Labour, controlled by the fanatics of Momentum and their acolytes. Defined by a singular lack of 21st century Realpolitik and their love of madcap 1920's socialism. If you're not with them, you're not true Labour. In fact, you're a 'traitor'. The current Labour party are left of centre. Unless you're big into the Daily Express, they're about as radical as your gran knitting you a Ninja Turtles jumper in 1990. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodhull Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 (edited) What's going on with the Labour MP who got done for lying about driving a car while an offence was commited? Is there going to be a by-election for her seat? Edited February 20, 2019 by Rodhull 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dorlomin Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Rodhull said: What's going on with the Labour MP who got done for lying about driving a car while it commited an offence? Is there going to be a by-election for her seat? Probably not. Its only an automatic expulsion if you get sent down for 12 months (she got 3) and in Peterborough and her majority is 600. All those demanding by elections for this and that are a bit quiet on that one. Edited February 20, 2019 by dorlomin 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.