AL-FFC Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 14 minutes ago, NewBornBairn said: Who gives a f**k about the source if the story is true? I suspect there are many people here who would agree that anyone fighting for the IDF should have their British citizenship removed Not one to defend the IDF in this but the media only portrays an a specific side to any conflict your never going to get an unbia view there was one a few years back where Israel launched an attack on Palestinian territory with 12 missiles fired in retalation what wasnt reported was the 100 and odd Mortars/Rockets that was fired into Israel. Whichever way you lean on the Israel thing neither side is innocent in it. Few other points on the Bethnal school girl the father of the one at the moment had took his daughter to a hate preacher anti western protest (his excuse was he couldnt get a babysitter) way to go for great parenting. She's shown no remorse for what she has done or been involved with the comment "i had heard it was ok in Islam to behead someone" says it all and as for the "i am willing to TRY and change comment" the down side of that its not a trial run and the mistake is when the security services slip up and someone ends up dying because of it. As for Letts and the rest of them the way i see it is all of them sided with Isis when things were going good, now that Isis is on its arse all of them funnily enough were doing humanitarian work or "i was a housewife" 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotThePars Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 Yea it’s mental that people are trying to have a nuanced take on an issue that’s been dominating the headlines for a week and not then scanning through every related case in the news to repeat the same point. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 2 hours ago, AL-FFC said: Not one to defend the IDF in this but the media only portrays an a specific side to any conflict your never going to get an unbia view there was one a few years back where Israel launched an attack on Palestinian territory with 12 missiles fired in retalation what wasnt reported was the 100 and odd Mortars/Rockets that was fired into Israel. Whichever way you lean on the Israel thing neither side is innocent in it. As for the first paragraph, only someone with no idea of the sophistication and power of the weaponry used by the two sides would be swayed in any way by these numerical comparisons. As for the second paragraph, there’s faults on both sides but we are dealing with an oppressor and an oppressed. Far more Palestinians have died than Israelis. One side is far more culpable than the other. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 2 hours ago, AL-FFC said: Not one to defend the IDF in this but the media only portrays an a specific side to any conflict your never going to get an unbia view there was one a few years back where Israel launched an attack on Palestinian territory with 12 missiles fired in retalation what wasnt reported was the 100 and odd Mortars/Rockets that was fired into Israel. The difference is that the 100 Palestinian rockets likely didn't hurt a goat whereas the 12 Israeli missiles probably all did a lot more than that. I'm not defending Hamas's futile and stupid attacks, but it's the disproportionate Israeli responses that have led them to be accused of war crimes. Here's the article that prompted McDonnell to write his letter. https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/its-not-just-radicalised-islamists-what-about-foreign-fighters-who-flock-to-the-idf-9634260.html 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AL-FFC Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 17 minutes ago, Granny Danger said: As for the first paragraph, only someone with no idea of the sophistication and power of the weaponry used by the two sides would be swayed in any way by these numerical comparisons. As for the second paragraph, there’s faults on both sides but we are dealing with an oppressor and an oppressed. Far more Palestinians have died than Israelis. One side is far more culpable than the other. I know first hand how sophisticated weapons are, the problem you have is not the sophistication of weapons your talking about the damage of a suicide bomber vs for example a missile, when you see the effect of a suicide bomber gone right and delivered at any target not to mention the effects of Mortar and rocket fire your dealing with people that have pretty much indiscriminate targeting of people. Your talking coordinated attacks with civilians being used as human shields if any civilians get killed then its bad publicity for Israel and a recruitment drive for Hamas in their eyes its win win. 12 rockets going one way and say 100 going the other you do kind of get a bit pissed off with rocket fire and mortar fire and not being able to do anything about it. The worst part is not knowing if your going to be the unlucky b*****d on the receiving end of a Mortar. I fully understand that all am saying need to look at other angles of it not condoning Israels actions and am certainly not condoning Hamas actions but if your arguing the case of one side being oppressed and another being the oppressor then your opening a whole new can of worms. If you look how Isis managed to grow so rapidly one of the main reasons it grew in Iraq was from a Sunni minority that felt oppressed by the Shia government and they felt that Isis could give them that balance and look how that panned out. The argument here being the Sunni minority being oppressed by the Shia govt so does that justify the actions of Isis. The attacks carried out by Isis were mainly in response for attacks on Muslims around the world yet they ignored the fact they killed thousands of Muslims (mainly Shia and Sunni) in their territory once held as a Caliphate. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 5 minutes ago, AL-FFC said: I fully understand that all am saying need to look at other angles of it not condoning Israels actions and am certainly not condoning Hamas actions but if your arguing the case of one side being oppressed and another being the oppressor then your opening a whole new can of worms. It’s not a ‘whole new can of worms’ in the ongoing Israeli/Palestinian conflict anyone who doesn’t see Israel as the oppressor really needs to re-evaluate the situation. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AL-FFC Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 Just now, Granny Danger said: It’s not a ‘whole new can of worms’ in the ongoing Israeli/Palestinian conflict anyone who doesn’t see Israel as the oppressor really needs to re-evaluate the situation. Like i said i get the argument your making as Israel being the oppressor but you can apply that to any conflict, one side is going to claim the oppressed the other being the oppressor, as i mentioned Isis claimed to be standing up for Sunni Muslims against an Oppressive Shia regime in Iraq does that make their actions justified. Its going off course from Bethnal school girls but your fighting an ideaology. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotThePars Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 In what way are the Palestinians, who live in an open air prison, where they are completely at the mercy of a blockade and vastly superior military force sanctioned by the world’s hegemonic power, the oppressor? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sureiknow Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 4 hours ago, NewBornBairn said: Turns out that whilst Corbyn is trying to score political points by saying she should be allowed to return and nobody should have their citizenship stripped from them, McDonnell has been calling for people who fight for the Israeli Army to be stripped of theirs. https://order-order.com/2019/02/22/mcdonnell-strip-brits-fight-israeli-state-citizenship/ Strange McDonnell wants a member/ supporter of ISIS back but not members of the I.D.F. Is it because they are Jewish? Of course it is. He and others in Labour just can't hid their dislike of Jews. And him, Corbyn and Abbott all voted against stripping ISIS members of their British Citizenship. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherrif John Bunnell Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 Here's how Sajid Javid works out if you get to keep your citizenship or not. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detournement Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 27 minutes ago, sureiknow said: Strange McDonnell wants a member/ supporter of ISIS back but not members of the I.D.F. She isn't a member of ISIS FFS. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergeant Wilson Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 34 minutes ago, Sherrif John Bunnell said: Here's how Sajid Javid works out if you get to keep your citizenship or not. It's not even that. He's let about 400 trained ISIS combatants back in already, they just weren't daft enough to go on the telly. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotThePars Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 Bizarrely Bet365 have lowered my cash out for Javid to be the next Tory leader after he did this. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detournement Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 The Tory members won't vote for Javid. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergeant Wilson Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 Just now, Detournement said: The Tory members won't vote for Javid. Now the chart comes in to it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin_Nevis Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 5 hours ago, NewBornBairn said: Turns out that whilst Corbyn is trying to score political points by saying she should be allowed to return and nobody should have their citizenship stripped from them, McDonnell has been calling for people who fight for the Israeli Army to be stripped of theirs. https://order-order.com/2019/02/22/mcdonnell-strip-brits-fight-israeli-state-citizenship/ 1. Your source is fucking laughable 2. Even if it's true, in order to draw an equivalence, the IDF would have to be recognised as a terrorist organisation. I'm happy enough with that, actually. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detournement Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 This is the quote. Quote “Will you be warning any British citizens considering engagement with the IDF that, in line with established British Government practice (e.g. the deprivation of British citizenship from, to date, at least 40 UK passport holders who have been involved in the Syrian civil war), such engagement may put their British citizenship in jeopardy?” McDonnell to those of us with Standard Grade level reading comprehension is clearly not calling for anyone to be stripped of their citizenship. He is clearly highlighting the hypocrisy of the government. The other thing worth noting is that the letter was written in July 2014 before the term Islamic State was even in popular use. The letter was referring to people who went to fight with the groups that our government was supplying with weapons and support. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeTillEhDeh Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 The IDF example is not really a very appropriate example. According to Israel’s Defense Law, service in the IDF is obligatory. This law applies to: - Citizens of the State of Israel, whether they are residing in Israel or abroad, even if they have another nationality. - Permanent residents of Israel, even if they are not Israeli citizens. The military authorities have authorized Consulates abroad to perform certain services pertaining to military service. These include determining if one is obligated to serve in the army, verifying information on army service, and granting deferments. Upon entering Israel, every citizen above the age of 17 is required to show proof of his or her military status. One’s army status is determined by his or her obligation to serve in the IDF and eligibility for a deferment or release from service. You can apply for a deferment if your parents emigrated before you were 16 but no exemptions are accepted in any circumstances. Even if you were born abroad you are still eligible for military service. Basically if you are an Israeli citizen or your parents are then don't visit Israel if you don't want to become eligible for military service in Israel. A better example would be Jack Letts who hasn't had his British citizenship revoked despite having dual British-Canadian nationality. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doulikefish Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 The IDF example is not really a very appropriate example. According to Israel’s Defense Law, service in the IDF is obligatory. This law applies to: - Citizens of the State of Israel, whether they are residing in Israel or abroad, even if they have another nationality. - Permanent residents of Israel, even if they are not Israeli citizens. The military authorities have authorized Consulates abroad to perform certain services pertaining to military service. These include determining if one is obligated to serve in the army, verifying information on army service, and granting deferments. Upon entering Israel, every citizen above the age of 17 is required to show proof of his or her military status. One’s army status is determined by his or her obligation to serve in the IDF and eligibility for a deferment or release from service. You can apply for a deferment if your parents emigrated before you were 16 but no exemptions are accepted in any circumstances. Even if you were born abroad you are still eligible for military service. Basically if you are an Israeli citizen or your parents are then don't visit Israel if you don't want to become eligible for military service in Israel. A better example would be Jack Letts who hasn't had his British citizenship revoked despite having dual British-Canadian nationality. Quite a few countries have similiar rules.Loads of Turks/Greeks that are born and breed abroad have to go back to there parents or in some cases grandparents home country to do there military service or can never visit after they turn 17 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacksgranda Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 10 minutes ago, doulikefish said: Quite a few countries have similiar rules.Loads of Turks/Greeks that are born and breed abroad have to go back to there parents or in some cases grandparents home country to do there military service or can never visit after they turn 17 So if you don't have any children, you'll be o.k. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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