Motherwell v Livingston

[capt_oats]

11 hours ago, FreedomFarter said:

I'd wondered for a while what Motherwell fans thought of that. The squad being comprised almost exclusively of low quality, high wage players brought up from England. I hope the successes of Campbell, Turnbull and Hastie allows the Motherwell management to realise what you've pointed out there.

@Casagolda and @DosserDel absolutely nail it with the posts above but it's also worth noting that it was largely the same "low quality" players that had us comfortably mid-table and in 2 cup finals last season not to mention the same recruitment strategy has brought in £3m+ in transfer revenue. Marvin Johnson, Ben Heneghan, Louis Moult and Cedric Kipré were all brought up here from England, we even got cash money for Ryan Bowman at the start of the January window just there.

As Casagolda says, it's all about balance.

[ropy]

On the game, I didn’t actually think there was much between the teams, but we scored the goals (some very good goals) there have been many a game earlier in the season when it was the other way around.

[Swello]

Lots to agree with - it's also worth noting that whilst we are all enjoying this wee run and the change of style, there hasn't been a huge challenge to beat Accies, Dundee, (a woeful) Hibs and Livi in the middle of a bad run. It's been apparent in recent games that we are very open, which makes for enjoyable games but a good team would have taken some of the chances that Dundee and Livi spurned over the past couple of weeks for example.

I still kind of feel that my view from earlier in the season stands to some extent - we need two ways of playing. I'm genuinely delighted that we have started to put out an attacking line-up against teams of similar calibre to us as we really need to be taking the game to these teams and have a bit of courage - but we will  still need to have a "battling" team for tougher games. Inflexibly playing an open attacking line-up in games that don't merit it is probably just as bad as the other way round.

 

[well fan for life]

6 hours ago, capt_oats said:

See, the thing about this is that it's not some tokenist, "WhY dOnt We pLaY tHe YoUtH pLayErS", least worst thing. Which is absolutely smashing to see.

It's not a case of trying to make Dom Thomas happen. Hastie, Turnbull etc are legit the best players for their positions and unlike McGhee chucking Hastie on as a sub when he was 17 he's actually ready to be in the first team now.

In fact, a gentle reminder that both Hastie and Turnbull are both younger just now than Thomas was when he was getting hooked inside an hour against East Stirling yet they've made more of an impact in fewer games than the bold DT23 did in his entire Motherwell career.

I'm starting to worry that we might not see any return on that sell-on clause tbh.

[spiggle]

Motherwell were class on Saturday. The left winger Ariyibi was outstanding, tearing Gallagher, Byrne, Erskine and Sibbald to shreds. When you have a player like that, it creates space for the likes of Main and Hastie to do some serious damage to us. First half it was three goals going on seven. I still don't understand why we played Erkine at right wing back. He can't defend and I believe he doesn't fit into the 3-5-2 formation we employ.

So many players never turned up and the usual work rate just wasn't there. I think we missed Jacobs today and as much as Lamie was ripped to shreds against The Rangers, I would have preferred to see him and the new lad as the wing backs.

There is a lot of talent there but the form of the midfield three and the back three before Christmas has left a lot of players twiddling their thumbs. I'm hoping there is a bit of a shake up for Wednesday and maybe seeing either Lithgow or Gallagher dropped, if not both in favour of Odofin and Lamie, going back to 4 at the back. I liked the formation used in the second half and preferred Dolly on the wing.

For a game we got horsed in the first 30 mins, I really enjoyed watching it, due to the skill and play of the Motherwell players. If they play like that for the rest of the season, they are going to give a few teams a doing.

[crazylegsjoe]

The first half on Saturday was as good as I've seen us play in a long time.

I thought moving to a back four might really suit Frear, but when you look at how we've played with Ariyibi and Hastie, I'm beginning to think this system wouldn't suit him so well. I'd say that in modern football sense, you would call Hastie a "forward", rather than a winger and playing the two of them inverted has really contributed to our recent relative success. I don't think Frear's game (getting to the byline and putting a cross in), works too well in anything other than a 4-4-2, so I'd imagine he'll still find himself deputy for the rest of the season.

Alex Rodriguez-Gorrin impressed me on Saturday in that although Carl McHugh is a great ball winner, Rodriguez seems one step ahead in that his positioning and interceptions mean there's often no requirement for him to go and win the ball.

Aldred and Dunne easily our best pairing at the back, both complement each other very well. 

Some difference from the Ross County game.

 

[Busta Nut]

After powering that Menga boy. I thought he was decent on the wing when he came on.

[ONeils4Oyarder]

Thoroughly enjoyable viewing in the 1st half on Saturday. Campbell, Gorrin and Turnbull absolutely bossed the midfield, with Gorrin and Campbell really looking like they have struck up an understanding recently, both tenacious but both also wanting to get the ball down and play. You can also see the benefits of Campbell and Turnbull having played fitba' with each other since they were just out of nappies, as it was borderline telepathic at times between them. I didn't buy into the Turnbull hype as readily as some, because I wanted to see him after a real run in the team, but the boy has surpassed all expectations...hes comfortable on the ball to the point that he genuinely looks like he has more time than he actually does, rarely gives it away, constantly looking for it, he can play a whole range of passes, has a physical element and his shooting isn't too shabby either. If I was going to compare him to a player of yesteryear, he reminds me of Gary McAllister.

Just going to a game and seeing a bit of width, a bit of imagination, and actually being off my seat applauding Ariyibi skying a shot over the bar, is so much better than moaning my way through a match as we shell long ball, after long ball at strikers who don't want to play that way.  When Gillespie took that ball into his chest, Hasties 1s thought was to get on his toes and the keepers ball to him was exquisite. The way the young guys have played recently, I'd be inclined to give Scott and Livingstone a wee bit of a run to see how they get on as well.

 

If I'm going to be critical, I was disappointed with drop in tempo in the 2nd half, though I can understand it. As well as this, we actually did give Livingston too many chances...I'd still far rather see Tait on the right and Grimshaw dropped, while I'm not convinced with Dunne playing at centre-back in a back 4.

 

 

[ONeils4Oyarder]

3 minutes ago, Busta Nut said:

After powering that Menga boy. I thought he was decent on the wing when he came on.

He was...very lively and gave Tait a bit of a time of it

[well fan for life]

2 minutes ago, Busta Nut said:

After powering that Menga boy. I thought he was decent on the wing when he came on.

See I thought he looked like he was doing a lot without really doing anything. I reckon he'd be frustrating as f**k if you supported Livi. 

1 minute ago, ONeils4Oyarder said:

Thoroughly enjoyable viewing in the 1st half on Saturday. Campbell, Gorrin and Turnbull absolutely bossed the midfield, with Gorrin and Campbell really looking like they have struck up an understanding recently, both tenacious but both also wanting to get the ball down and play. You can also see the benefits of Campbell and Turnbull having played fitba' with each other since they were just out of nappies, as it was borderline telepathic at times between them. I didn't buy into the Turnbull hype as readily as some, because I wanted to see him after a real run in the team, but the boy has surpassed all expectations...hes comfortable on the ball to the point that he genuinely looks like he has more time than he actually does, rarely gives it away, constantly looking for it, he can play a whole range of passes, has a physical element and his shooting isn't too shabby either. If I was going to compare him to a player of yesteryear, he reminds me of Gary McAllister.

Just going to a game and seeing a bit of width, a bit of imagination, and actually being off my seat applauding Ariyibi skying a shot over the bar, is so much better than moaning my way through a match as we shell long ball, after long ball at strikers who don't want to play that way.  When Gillespie took that ball into his chest, Hasties 1s thought was to get on his toes and the keepers ball to him was exquisite. The way the young guys have played recently, I'd be inclined to give Scott and Livingstone a wee bit of a run to see how they get on as well.

 

If I'm going to be critical, I was disappointed with drop in tempo in the 2nd half, though I can understand it. As well as this, we actually did give Livingston too many chances...I'd still far rather see Tait on the right and Grimshaw dropped, while I'm not convinced with Dunne playing at centre-back in a back 4.

 

 

Oh Christ no. Dunne's fucking shocking at left back. He's not the greatest player but he's got pace at the back which bails us out of trouble quite often. That back 4 on Saturday is probably as strong as we've got right now. Tait can stick at left back until Livingstone's been in the gym and got himself fit enough.

[ONeils4Oyarder]

1 minute ago, well fan for life said:

See I thought he looked like he was doing a lot without really doing anything. I reckon he'd be frustrating as f**k if you supported Livi. 

Oh Christ no. Dunne's fucking shocking at left back. He's not the greatest player but he's got pace at the back which bails us out of trouble quite often. That back 4 on Saturday is probably as strong as we've got right now. Tait can stick at left back until Livingstone's been in the gym and got himself fit enough.

I don't want Dunne at left-back either...in a back 4, I'm not convinced by Dunne at all. There were numerous times on Saturday where Aldred and Dunne were too far apart.

[Busta Nut]

4 minutes ago, well fan for life said:

See I thought he looked like he was doing a lot without really doing anything. I reckon he'd be frustrating as f**k if you supported Livi.

Possibly. This time he was running at /past players and putting the baw in the box.

Before when I have caught bits of him he's been dugshite. So it was an upgrade on that.

[Archie McSquackle]

I thought Dunne looked as though he's getting back to the form that saw him get numerous MOTM awards in the second half of last season but I suppose that just shows people see the game differently. Livingston's attacking policy was to try and drop the ball over the last man and hope their forward could get the break of the ball - Dunne's pace meant that didn't happen and I would have been a lot less comfortable if it had been Hartley and Aldred at the back.

[capt_oats]

1 hour ago, crazylegsjoe said:

The first half on Saturday was as good as I've seen us play in a long time.

I thought moving to a back four might really suit Frear, but when you look at how we've played with Ariyibi and Hastie, I'm beginning to think this system wouldn't suit him so well. I'd say that in modern football sense, you would call Hastie a "forward", rather than a winger and playing the two of them inverted has really contributed to our recent relative success. I don't think Frear's game (getting to the byline and putting a cross in), works too well in anything other than a 4-4-2, so I'd imagine he'll still find himself deputy for the rest of the season.

Alex Rodriguez-Gorrin impressed me on Saturday in that although Carl McHugh is a great ball winner, Rodriguez seems one step ahead in that his positioning and interceptions mean there's often no requirement for him to go and win the ball.

Aldred and Dunne easily our best pairing at the back, both complement each other very well. 

Some difference from the Ross County game.

Absolutely. I always felt that was the case when I watched Hastie in Craigan's u20s side.

IIRC there was an interview with Craigan (possibly one of the post-match ones up on YouTube) and he was talking about how they were trying to get Hastie playing through the middle and develop his all round game rather than just sticking him out wide. I've always thought of him as a "forward" rather than a winger tbh. Going back to the u20s 16/17 season I think he finished with something like 14 goals, a lot of them from playing on the shoulder in that sort of inside forward position.

I've no real beef with Frear and I'm not really wanting to pile on but the other point in the comparison is Hastie's physicality. I don't think it's too wide of the mark to suggest that Frear wouldn't have got by the first defender for the 3rd goal.

[Durnford]

2 hours ago, spiggle said:

Motherwell were class on Saturday. The left winger Ariyibi was outstanding, tearing Gallagher, Byrne, Erskine and Sibbald to shreds. When you have a player like that, it creates space for the likes of Main and Hastie to do some serious damage to us. First half it was three goals going on seven. I still don't understand why we played Erkine at right wing back. He can't defend and I believe he doesn't fit into the 3-5-2 formation we employ.

So many players never turned up and the usual work rate just wasn't there. I think we missed Jacobs today and as much as Lamie was ripped to shreds against The Rangers, I would have preferred to see him and the new lad as the wing backs.

There is a lot of talent there but the form of the midfield three and the back three before Christmas has left a lot of players twiddling their thumbs. I'm hoping there is a bit of a shake up for Wednesday and maybe seeing either Lithgow or Gallagher dropped, if not both in favour of Odofin and Lamie, going back to 4 at the back. I liked the formation used in the second half and preferred Dolly on the wing.

For a game we got horsed in the first 30 mins, I really enjoyed watching it, due to the skill and play of the Motherwell players. If they play like that for the rest of the season, they are going to give a few teams a doing.

Funny as it may sound I actually feel Motherwell did us a favour on Saturday.

With the exception of the rangers game our last three games have been close affairs losing by the off goal but in all three occasions it was pretty obvious that the opposition had quite closely examined the strengths and weaknesses of our "three-at-the-back" defence.

On our last visit to fir park; Lawless got ripped a new one time and again by Motherwell wingers; he's really good going forward but he doesn't have the agility or burst of speed to track back and cover. I actually thought McMillan was far better at that and yet we let him go out on loan.

The admittedly few times that I've seen Erskine I've not been particularly impressed; Cadden wasn't great in defending but he was a lot better in tracking back. Maybe Erskine is missing match fitness but then the question must be why play him.

For about the first half of the season we did very well with our back line of Gallagher; Halkett; Lithgow - allowing us to really strengthen the midfield but that only really worked if you got the ball forward to them rather than trying to tippy-tap it around the back three. Obviously quite a few managers have really studied us and seen the weak points and most must now know how to exploit them.

Now we need to shake it up a bit; concentrate on what we're good at and not play into the opposition's hands. 

Unfortunately if we'd simply lost against Motherwell by an odd goal we might have been going on about how we were unlucky; played well but didn't get the rub of the green etc. etc. However to have effectively lost the game withing the first half an hour is a bitter pill and certainly one we need to learn from.

 

 

[well fan for life]

7 minutes ago, Durnford said:

Funny as it may sound I actually feel Motherwell did us a favour on Saturday.

With the exception of the rangers game our last three games have been close affairs losing by the off goal but in all three occasions it was pretty obvious that the opposition had quite closely examined the strengths and weaknesses of our "three-at-the-back" defence.

On our last visit to fir park; Lawless got ripped a new one time and again by Motherwell wingers; he's really good going forward but he doesn't have the agility or burst of speed to track back and cover. I actually thought McMillan was far better at that and yet we let him go out on loan.

The admittedly few times that I've seen Erskine I've not been particularly impressed; Cadden wasn't great in defending but he was a lot better in tracking back. Maybe Erskine is missing match fitness but then the question must be why play him.

For about the first half of the season we did very well with our back line of Gallagher; Halkett; Lithgow - allowing us to really strengthen the midfield but that only really worked if you got the ball forward to them rather than trying to tippy-tap it around the back three. Obviously quite a few managers have really studied us and seen the weak points and most must now know how to exploit them.

Now we need to shake it up a bit; concentrate on what we're good at and not play into the opposition's hands. 

Unfortunately if we'd simply lost against Motherwell by an odd goal we might have been going on about how we were unlucky; played well but didn't get the rub of the green etc. etc. However to have effectively lost the game withing the first half an hour is a bitter pill and certainly one we need to learn from.

 

 

I think this sums it up. Obviously it helps that we have players bang in form but the set up compared to previous games against Livingston was very different. The last couple of times we've attempted to try and sit in and defend long balls while leaving whoever is upfront totally isolated. This time you could see we were defending on the front foot and trying to play our own game. The wing backs in particular were a strange decision, that's for sure. Ariyibi was having a whale of a time out wide. 

I did wonder earlier in the season if Livi's success was partly down to teams not quite knowing what to expect. We had similar issues last year using the same kind of system. There's games where we absolutely ragdolled teams and cantered to a win but when we were bad we were really, really shite.

[capt_oats]

low key winners from this wee run and change in style are the media team. #content

 

[spiggle]

17 hours ago, Durnford said:

Funny as it may sound I actually feel Motherwell did us a favour on Saturday.

With the exception of the rangers game our last three games have been close affairs losing by the off goal but in all three occasions it was pretty obvious that the opposition had quite closely examined the strengths and weaknesses of our "three-at-the-back" defence.

On our last visit to fir park; Lawless got ripped a new one time and again by Motherwell wingers; he's really good going forward but he doesn't have the agility or burst of speed to track back and cover. I actually thought McMillan was far better at that and yet we let him go out on loan.

The admittedly few times that I've seen Erskine I've not been particularly impressed; Cadden wasn't great in defending but he was a lot better in tracking back. Maybe Erskine is missing match fitness but then the question must be why play him.

For about the first half of the season we did very well with our back line of Gallagher; Halkett; Lithgow - allowing us to really strengthen the midfield but that only really worked if you got the ball forward to them rather than trying to tippy-tap it around the back three. Obviously quite a few managers have really studied us and seen the weak points and most must now know how to exploit them.

Now we need to shake it up a bit; concentrate on what we're good at and not play into the opposition's hands. 

Unfortunately if we'd simply lost against Motherwell by an odd goal we might have been going on about how we were unlucky; played well but didn't get the rub of the green etc. etc. However to have effectively lost the game withing the first half an hour is a bitter pill and certainly one we need to learn from.

 

 

Spot on, I can't disagree with any of this. Holt seems so married to the 3-5-2 that we don't have many guys who can play at fullback outwith Lamie and the new guy. Our cover for them if we go to a back 4 is Gallagher and Lithgow.

Erskine and Wylde have not impressed at all since coming in. I'm just glad we have a cushion going into the last few games of the season.