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Is the Loan System getting out of hand?


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First off, I get this issue is bordering on pettiness, and second I get that increased competition at the top begets finding ways of recruiting players outside of the budget is seen as a necessity. Also it's still the winter shutdown which is boring us so I've given you the unholy trinity of why I've started this topic.

I guess what's triggering me is that with ourselves and our squad size now and level of investment in youth,  still in spite of this all are looking at recruiting a pacey winger and another player on loan from clubs in the  championship. Since hearing about it, I started to find myself a little bit annoyed also at the Shaughnessy loan signing. Yes, we've had injuries, but with four CBs on the books ( I know Hughes is finished but the point still stands) plus Haring capable of playing there, we're effectively stating that youths like Daniel Baur or Alex Petkov (19 years old each) who have been training with the first team squad, one of which has had experience on loan, are still not good enough to be considered 4th/5th choice CB.

I get that we've probably exercised most of our budget and loans are the next option around it, but I find myself becoming increasingly annoyed at picking up unwanted players from the championship level and developing the players for them. I'd rather we took a chance on the players we had or went looking outside of the UK for players we can develop for ourselves. We hired 4 extra scouts last year. I can't get my head around between them all, that the recruitment plan of action is "championship gamble/journeyman/cast off", and we have to have a bit more imagination that.

It got me thinking about other clubs also though. I can only imagine how fucked off Aberdeen fans must have been seeing Ryan Christie score the winner in the league cup against them after developing him ahead of their own players for 18 months. They've also just lost Max Lowe who had only just established himself as LB which can't help considering the issues and quick fixes (fair enough Considine has been good there when needed) they've had in that position over the years.

I appreciate that there are a lot of reasons why teams go looking for players on loan. Particularly if you're in the lower echelons of the league with squad sizes a bit more depleted. I feel that Livingston and St Johnstone foe example have used it quite exceptionally considering their resources in comparison to the rest of the league, and that they have little choice but to use it for squad size purposes. Motherwell and Kilmarnock have been rather good at using it more effectively with Ross McCormack and Greg Stewart. In getting an established player in rather taking a chance is clearly more ideal, but I can imagine how Killie must be pissed at seeing arguably their best performer this season taken away, after taking a chance to rejuvenate Stewart only to see him leave and potentially rob Killie of a season to potentially do something considering their calendar year form.

Another crux is the amount of loan signings the OF are taking on.

If I'm someone like Ryan Hardie for example. I've just came back from injury and just proven that I can clearly cut it at Premiership level (8 goals in 14 games, not all starting is very good for Premiership level). I'm thinking I could potentially keep going and then some in a better team. I then see a 36 year old come in on loan when I'm already potentially saw myself at that point in time as 3rd choice behind Morelos and Lafferty.  Greg Docherty is currently playing well for Shrewsbury, yet seeing the amount of Central midfielders that Rangers have and then recruit 33 year old Davis on loan, and will probably take him full time at the end of it doesn't exactly make me optimistic of first team football when he gets back.

Celtic are arguably worse for this. They've signed not one, but two 'potentially good' loan players on the top of the array for attacking players on their books already. It's no wonder Liam Henderson's brother Ewen isn't going to sign a new deal with Celtic. Fair enough Johnston has been getting some game time for now, but when you've signed two players with that pedigree, and then they're fighting Rogic, Forrest, Christie, Hayes, Allan, Sinclair, Morgan, potentially Bayo are all ahead of him for first team minutes. That is effectively 9/10th in the pecking order!

Again I know how petty it comes across, but it feels increasingly like the top clubs in Scotland are in danger of being overly diluted with English Premiership/Championship cast offs. I guess what I'm saying is, are we taking the easy way out with these loans? We are definitely getting better at developing players, I have no doubt of that. Maybe we have issues between establishing potentially good players into the first team but not sustaining it, but it is leading to apprehension in playing our own players rather than loaning a quick fix, only to have the same problem six months down the line.

I'm quite curious to hear what everyone else thinks.

tl;dr.    It feels like there is a trend with too many loan players in the SPFL Premiership. Yay or Nay?

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The loan system is a win win win for all involved 

take sam roscoe from Aberdeen on loan at Alloa

Alloa get a very good young talented centre back 

Sam gets valuable experience working with big Andy graham and learns from him

Aberdeen get a player back who has gained Senior experience he otherwise would not get playing for the reserves

On the downside you have signed players benched mind you, but more pro's than con's

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My only real problem with the loan system in Scotand is the rule about the player not being allowed to play against the parent club.

So to get round that to some extent , I think the lending of a player between two teams in the same league should be prohibited.   I think this rule is applied in England.

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25 minutes ago, the jambo-rocker said:

First off, I get this issue is bordering on pettiness, and second I get that increased competition at the top begets finding ways of recruiting players outside of the budget is seen as a necessity. Also it's still the winter shutdown which is boring us so I've given you the unholy trinity of why I've started this topic.

I guess what's triggering me is that with ourselves and our squad size now and level of investment in youth,  still in spite of this all are looking at recruiting a pacey winger and another player on loan from clubs in the  championship. Since hearing about it, I started to find myself a little bit annoyed also at the Shaughnessy loan signing. Yes, we've had injuries, but with four CBs on the books ( I know Hughes is finished but the point still stands) plus Haring capable of playing there, we're effectively stating that youths like Daniel Baur or Alex Petkov (19 years old each) who have been training with the first team squad, one of which has had experience on loan, are still not good enough to be considered 4th/5th choice CB.

I get that we've probably exercised most of our budget and loans are the next option around it, but I find myself becoming increasingly annoyed at picking up unwanted players from the championship level and developing the players for them. I'd rather we took a chance on the players we had or went looking outside of the UK for players we can develop for ourselves. We hired 4 extra scouts last year. I can't get my head around between them all, that the recruitment plan of action is "championship gamble/journeyman/cast off", and we have to have a bit more imagination that.

It got me thinking about other clubs also though. I can only imagine how fucked off Aberdeen fans must have been seeing Ryan Christie score the winner in the league cup against them after developing him ahead of their own players for 18 months. They've also just lost Max Lowe who had only just established himself as LB which can't help considering the issues and quick fixes (fair enough Considine has been good there when needed) they've had in that position over the years.

I appreciate that there are a lot of reasons why teams go looking for players on loan. Particularly if you're in the lower echelons of the league with squad sizes a bit more depleted. I feel that Livingston and St Johnstone foe example have used it quite exceptionally considering their resources in comparison to the rest of the league, and that they have little choice but to use it for squad size purposes. Motherwell and Kilmarnock have been rather good at using it more effectively with Ross McCormack and Greg Stewart. In getting an established player in rather taking a chance is clearly more ideal, but I can imagine how Killie must be pissed at seeing arguably their best performer this season taken away, after taking a chance to rejuvenate Stewart only to see him leave and potentially rob Killie of a season to potentially do something considering their calendar year form.

Another crux is the amount of loan signings the OF are taking on.

If I'm someone like Ryan Hardie for example. I've just came back from injury and just proven that I can clearly cut it at Premiership level (8 goals in 14 games, not all starting is very good for Premiership level). I'm thinking I could potentially keep going and then some in a better team. I then see a 36 year old come in on loan when I'm already potentially saw myself at that point in time as 3rd choice behind Morelos and Lafferty.  Greg Docherty is currently playing well for Shrewsbury, yet seeing the amount of Central midfielders that Rangers have and then recruit 33 year old Davis on loan, and will probably take him full time at the end of it doesn't exactly make me optimistic of first team football when he gets back.

Celtic are arguably worse for this. They've signed not one, but two 'potentially good' loan players on the top of the array for attacking players on their books already. It's no wonder Liam Henderson's brother Ewen isn't going to sign a new deal with Celtic. Fair enough Johnston has been getting some game time for now, but when you've signed two players with that pedigree, and then they're fighting Rogic, Forrest, Christie, Hayes, Allan, Sinclair, Morgan, potentially Bayo are all ahead of him for first team minutes. That is effectively 9/10th in the pecking order!

Again I know how petty it comes across, but it feels increasingly like the top clubs in Scotland are in danger of being overly diluted with English Premiership/Championship cast offs. I guess what I'm saying is, are we taking the easy way out with these loans? We are definitely getting better at developing players, I have no doubt of that. Maybe we have issues between establishing potentially good players into the first team but not sustaining it, but it is leading to apprehension in playing our own players rather than loaning a quick fix, only to have the same problem six months down the line.

I'm quite curious to hear what everyone else thinks.

tl;dr.    It feels like there are becoming too many loan players in the SPFL Premiership. Yay or Nay?

The loan system is good but there are clubs that overuse it.

Really loan players should only be used to complement the permanent squad.  Maybe one or two of your first 11, players of quality you wouldn't normally get on a permanent.

Anymore than that and you're having to make significant changes every transfer window, you run the risk of losing them to a recall and you don't recoup any value at the end of it.  Ryan Christie was unfortunate but ultimately we knew what we were getting into there, I think it's put most fans off loaning from Celtic in future.  Conversely, we were very close to signing Christie permanently in the summer which wouldn't have happened without that loan, so its swings and roundabouts.

Ultimately its down to clubs and managers to manage their squads properly, the system itself isn't broken.

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11 minutes ago, whereismillar said:

The loan system is a win win win for all involved 

take sam roscoe from Aberdeen on loan at Alloa

Alloa get a very good young talented centre back 

Sam gets valuable experience working with big Andy graham and learns from him

Aberdeen get a player back who has gained Senior experience he otherwise would not get playing for the reserves

On the downside you have signed players benched mind you, but more pro's than con's

What's your verdict on Sam Roscoe , so far ?

Not quite ready to replace McKenna if he goes sooner rather than later ?

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1 minute ago, A96 said:

What's your verdict on Sam Roscoe , so far ?

Not quite ready to replace McKenna if he goes sooner rather than later ?

Was just about to ask the exact same.

Probably getting ot make or break time for Roscoe. No longer just a young loon as going to turn 21 in the summer.

Having said that, I know Ayr Utd supporters that told me during the time he spent down at Somerset that he would never make the grade ;) 

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1 hour ago, the jambo-rocker said:

First off, I get this issue is bordering on pettiness, and second I get that increased competition at the top begets finding ways of recruiting players outside of the budget is seen as a necessity. Also it's still the winter shutdown which is boring us so I've given you the unholy trinity of why I've started this topic.

I guess what's triggering me is that with ourselves and our squad size now and level of investment in youth,  still in spite of this all are looking at recruiting a pacey winger and another player on loan from clubs in the  championship. Since hearing about it, I started to find myself a little bit annoyed also at the Shaughnessy loan signing. Yes, we've had injuries, but with four CBs on the books ( I know Hughes is finished but the point still stands) plus Haring capable of playing there, we're effectively stating that youths like Daniel Baur or Alex Petkov (19 years old each) who have been training with the first team squad, one of which has had experience on loan, are still not good enough to be considered 4th/5th choice CB.

I get that we've probably exercised most of our budget and loans are the next option around it, but I find myself becoming increasingly annoyed at picking up unwanted players from the championship level and developing the players for them. I'd rather we took a chance on the players we had or went looking outside of the UK for players we can develop for ourselves. We hired 4 extra scouts last year. I can't get my head around between them all, that the recruitment plan of action is "championship gamble/journeyman/cast off", and we have to have a bit more imagination that.

It got me thinking about other clubs also though. I can only imagine how fucked off Aberdeen fans must have been seeing Ryan Christie score the winner in the league cup against them after developing him ahead of their own players for 18 months. They've also just lost Max Lowe who had only just established himself as LB which can't help considering the issues and quick fixes (fair enough Considine has been good there when needed) they've had in that position over the years.

I appreciate that there are a lot of reasons why teams go looking for players on loan. Particularly if you're in the lower echelons of the league with squad sizes a bit more depleted. I feel that Livingston and St Johnstone foe example have used it quite exceptionally considering their resources in comparison to the rest of the league, and that they have little choice but to use it for squad size purposes. Motherwell and Kilmarnock have been rather good at using it more effectively with Ross McCormack and Greg Stewart. In getting an established player in rather taking a chance is clearly more ideal, but I can imagine how Killie must be pissed at seeing arguably their best performer this season taken away, after taking a chance to rejuvenate Stewart only to see him leave and potentially rob Killie of a season to potentially do something considering their calendar year form.

Another crux is the amount of loan signings the OF are taking on.

If I'm someone like Ryan Hardie for example. I've just came back from injury and just proven that I can clearly cut it at Premiership level (8 goals in 14 games, not all starting is very good for Premiership level). I'm thinking I could potentially keep going and then some in a better team. I then see a 36 year old come in on loan when I'm already potentially saw myself at that point in time as 3rd choice behind Morelos and Lafferty.  Greg Docherty is currently playing well for Shrewsbury, yet seeing the amount of Central midfielders that Rangers have and then recruit 33 year old Davis on loan, and will probably take him full time at the end of it doesn't exactly make me optimistic of first team football when he gets back.

Celtic are arguably worse for this. They've signed not one, but two 'potentially good' loan players on the top of the array for attacking players on their books already. It's no wonder Liam Henderson's brother Ewen isn't going to sign a new deal with Celtic. Fair enough Johnston has been getting some game time for now, but when you've signed two players with that pedigree, and then they're fighting Rogic, Forrest, Christie, Hayes, Allan, Sinclair, Morgan, potentially Bayo are all ahead of him for first team minutes. That is effectively 9/10th in the pecking order!

Again I know how petty it comes across, but it feels increasingly like the top clubs in Scotland are in danger of being overly diluted with English Premiership/Championship cast offs. I guess what I'm saying is, are we taking the easy way out with these loans? We are definitely getting better at developing players, I have no doubt of that. Maybe we have issues between establishing potentially good players into the first team but not sustaining it, but it is leading to apprehension in playing our own players rather than loaning a quick fix, only to have the same problem six months down the line.

I'm quite curious to hear what everyone else thinks.

tl;dr.    It feels like there is a trend with too many loan players in the SPFL Premiership. Yay or Nay?

I'm in 100% agreement with you here. As an Ayr fan I don't believe it's any coincidence that we're doing so well this year with all our own players and only the 1 Loan signing (Ross Doohan from Celtic), the players all seem more together and they also appear to be giving their all in every match which has not been the case in previous seasons when we had lots of Loan players coming in.

I also completely agree that it's mental for clubs to have a youth policy / academy of their own but then choose to develop a 17 or 18 year old from a rival club ahead of giving their own youth players a chance.

What message does that send out and what long term benefits are in it for the club taking the Loan player ?

Personally, I think the problem is that the rich have become far too rich (pretty much like society in general) and what I would do is put a limit on every single club that they can have a signed squad of no more than 30 players, that way it would possibly deter the big English clubs from hoovering up literally hundreds of players and instead give other clubs a chance to actually sign or bring through young players for themselves.

This of course would also benefit the young players as they would be far more likely to see competitive first team football at an early age and also play in a settled team as opposed to being punted from pillar to post before they're even 20.

There is of course short term benefits to having Loan players and being honest Ayr could do with someone right now, however as a business model and from a long term perspective I'm pretty much against it.

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Surely should be maximum of two at any one time otherwise its gets ridiculous. This year St Johnstone are doing fine with our own players.

I agree with this. In the premiership anyway I think there should be a maximum of 2 per club at any one time.
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There are advantages making it a win-win in many respects, but it's also becoming a wee bit of a pollution on our league.

Clubs are essentially losing any kind of identity when half their team is players on experience/fitness exercises for bigger clubs.

It would be sensible to perhaps cap it three per club maximum at any given time.

The other issue is unfair advantage. Maybe ironic considering the turn he did us, but I remember our eight game winning start in 2015/16 being almost single-handedly ended by Ryan Christie in Inverness, who then could not play against his parent club, Celtic, the following week.

Maybe loans within the same division should be banned completely.

 

 

 

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Clubs who take 3 or 4 loan players a season never end up doing anything IMO.  Every summer the personnel changes too much you can't get a consistent team over 2-3 years who become successful (ICT 2012-2015 ), (Ross County 2009-2013).

Clubs like Falkirk have stagnated in the Championship because they take in loads of young loanees in for a season, don't get promoted, then start again with a new team of jobbbers and loanees and the cycle continues.

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1 hour ago, WATTOO said:

I'm in 100% agreement with you here. As an Ayr fan I don't believe it's any coincidence that we're doing so well this year with all our own players and only the 1 Loan signing (Ross Doohan from Celtic), the players all seem more together and they also appear to be giving their all in every match which has not been the case in previous seasons when we had lots of Loan players coming in.

Can relate to this with Clyde aswell. We don't have a single player on loan (might change this window as Goodwillie has picked up an injury) and having a good season so far.

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I get the impression that often young players are being loaned out with little expectation of them ever coming back and becoming regulars at their parent club. It's basically letting them down gently.

Rory Currie is 20 and will spend the rest of the season in league one at East Fife. It would be a surprise if we see him back at Tynecastle regularly. It would be equally surprising if Demitri Mitchell (just turned 22) makes a long term impact back at Old Trafford.

The main annoyance of loan deals from a supporters point of view is that you don't have time to get attached to players before they move on. We're long past the days when a Gary Mackay, Willie Miller,Paul McStay  or <insert club legend of your choice> would spend their entire career at one club but with non-loan signings at least you get a few years of them. Loan signings can be gone before you've learnt how to pronounce their names (I miss Joaquim Adão)

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We had a match away to Albion Rovers near the start of last season where we only had 4 of "our" players starting (2 trialists, 5 - FIVE - loanees). Tom Fry later signed and Rohan Ferguson had just moved to Motherwell and was loaned back - but as has been alluded to above there's no link between the team and the fans and no chance to build a team over a 2-3 year period with that sort of setup. 

The upside to the loan system is that it allows clubs (particularly at a lower level where they might not have a real youth system in place) to replace injured players or tweak the squad mid-season. Banning same league loans might help to stop teams higher up the chain (e.g. Celtic) from hoovering up players but as Dons_1988 says its down to clubs using it properly. At any level, you'd want your club using the loan system to complement what the club is doing (whether covering an injury or giving a promising youngester another year to develop into a starter, etc) rather than bringing in a loanee to be mainstays and lurching from one transfew window to the next

 

Rovers match report for anyone interested: https://www.airdriefc.com/170819 Loanees were Tierney, McGregor (both Hamilton), Ferguson, Watt, Hastie (all Motherwell). 

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3 hours ago, Sheep62 said:

Was just about to ask the exact same.

Probably getting ot make or break time for Roscoe. No longer just a young loon as going to turn 21 in the summer.

Having said that, I know Ayr Utd supporters that told me during the time he spent down at Somerset that he would never make the grade ;) 

I would give you a different answer for each spell he was there. 

First one he came into a shambles team heading for league two, formed a back three with a winger and a right back that somehow all just about worked and he was very good. 

Second time he came in to another shambles Ayr team this time heading for league  one and could not partner anyone, the thing that stood out most was how clumsy he was now, more likely to give away a free kick/penalty than win the ball after being largely a solid influence before.  Then he absolutely destroyed John McGinn and wasn't seen again.  

Spoiler

hibs-v-ayr-scotland-football_3902935.jpg.dc2ebf8da34640b10ebc56ba1669389b.jpg

I think the second spell was more beneficial than the first to him as he speaks about being bad on that spell and has obviously used it as motivation to improve himself, so even a player coming in and not doing well can be a 'good' loan in the long run I guess.  

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15 minutes ago, itzdrk said:

I would give you a different answer for each spell he was there. 

First one he came into a shambles team heading for league two, formed a back three with a winger and a right back that somehow all just about worked and he was very good. 

Second time he came in to another shambles Ayr team this time heading for league  one and could not partner anyone, the thing that stood out most was how clumsy he was now, more likely to give away a free kick/penalty than win the ball after being largely a solid influence before.  Then he absolutely destroyed John McGinn and wasn't seen again.  

  Hide contents

hibs-v-ayr-scotland-football_3902935.jpg.dc2ebf8da34640b10ebc56ba1669389b.jpg

I think the second spell was more beneficial than the first to him as he speaks about being bad on that spell and has obviously used it as motivation to improve himself, so even a player coming in and not doing well can be a 'good' loan in the long run I guess.  

Forgot about that challenge on Mcginn.

Good c**t is our Scotty.

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16 minutes ago, itzdrk said:

I would give you a different answer for each spell he was there. 

First one he came into a shambles team heading for league two, formed a back three with a winger and a right back that somehow all just about worked and he was very good. 

Second time he came in to another shambles Ayr team this time heading for league  one and could not partner anyone, the thing that stood out most was how clumsy he was now, more likely to give away a free kick/penalty than win the ball after being largely a solid influence before.  Then he absolutely destroyed John McGinn and wasn't seen again.  

  Reveal hidden contents

hibs-v-ayr-scotland-football_3902935.jpg.dc2ebf8da34640b10ebc56ba1669389b.jpg

I think the second spell was more beneficial than the first to him as he speaks about being bad on that spell and has obviously used it as motivation to improve himself, so even a player coming in and not doing well can be a 'good' loan in the long run I guess.  

Aye, that's all well and good.

But it was Sam Roscoe at Alloa we were asking about.

Anyway , seeing as you're here , any word on how the lad Shankland's getting on at Ayr ?   Never hear much about him

 

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