Rangers V The Champions.

[The OP]

3 hours ago, Monkey Tennis said:

I think the dip in attendance can be aligned more closely to the years of Rangers' absence than you're implying.   In fact a look at said stats reveals that gates were low during the Mowbray season, but recovered for the next two before Rangers' death and the exile of the rebirth.  During those four seasons, Celtic's crowds were well down on every other season, except for that Mowbray one of failure.  Celtic's other title winning seasons since Parkhead was rebuilt, have all seen much higher crowds than those they got when Rangers weren't sharing the division.  

The appointment of Rodgers of course coincided with Rangers reaching the top flight.  It wasn't mere coincidence though.  The two events were closely related.

I’m not getting into a huge circular debate. The stats clearly cast doubt on your conclusion.

[bairney]

Ha ha ha - well done to Scott Brown for slowing the ball down.

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/rangers-fan-outraged-after-bookie-13792675.amp

[Monkey Tennis]

I actually have some sympathy for the argument that the fans couldn't have done much about it.  I think that due to the scale of the debt, they were pretty powerless.

I have very little sympathy for the fans themselves though, and that's got a lot to do with the triumphalism that accompanied the success, the entitlement of 'We deserve better' and the impotent, spiteful lashing out of 'Sink us and we'll sink you'.

Such sentiment won't reflect the views of every Rangers fan, but it became the fan narrative, because an alternative one was either not offered at all, or was very muffled.

[RedRob72]

"I do not believe however that the fans were broadly aware of what was happening behind the scenes and therefore complicit."

Of course you don't petal, shame and self awareness is not the therangers way.

You can't argue you didn't know you were cheating, you can however argue that you didn't care.

I can only speak for myself and other fans, I know or have met. None of us had any incline of how the scheme was being managed and the severity of implications to come. If it was SO abundantly clear, that we were deliberately cheating to gain competitive advantage on the Park, surely I would have read it on here first?
Are you trying to suggest that after lifting the League Title or the Scottish Cup, most fans are immediately questioning themselves on the legitimacy and authenticity of their euphoria, as to how their club is being correctly administered? I think most fans of any club would be genuinely concerned if the knew for certain that everything wasn’t above board.
That includes our supporters petal, but I guess that doesn’t fit your narrative.

[williemillersmoustache]

I can only speak for myself and other fans, I know or have met. None of us had any incline of how the scheme was being managed and the severity of implications to come. If it was SO abundantly clear, that we were deliberately cheating to gain competitive advantage on the Park, surely I would have read it on here first?

Are you trying to suggest that after lifting the League Title or the Scottish Cup, most fans are immediately questioning themselves on the legitimacy and authenticity of their euphoria, as to how their club is being correctly administered? I think most fans of any club would be genuinely concerned if the knew for certain that everything wasn’t above board.

That includes our supporters petal, but I guess that doesn’t fit your narrative.

Bit of leap to suggest your mob can read, you got me there. Fair do's.

 

Although i'm pretty sure Spiers did a fuzzy felt and glitter glue version of his "financial vandalism" article so there's really no excuse.

 

[BawWatchin]

4 minutes ago, RedRob72 said:

I can only speak for myself and other fans, I know or have met. None of us had any incline of how the scheme was being managed and the severity of implications to come. If it was SO abundantly clear, that we were deliberately cheating to gain competitive advantage on the Park, surely I would have read it on here first?
Are you trying to suggest that after lifting the League Title or the Scottish Cup, most fans are immediately questioning themselves on the legitimacy and authenticity of their euphoria, as to how their club is being correctly administered? I think most fans of any club would be genuinely concerned if the knew for certain that everything wasn’t above board.
That includes our supporters petal, but I guess that doesn’t fit your narrative.

Eh.... we were calling that deceased club cheats for decades m8. The response? "Everybody hates us and we don't care."

[bennett]

7 minutes ago, BawWatchin said:

Eh.... we were calling that deceased club cheats for decades m8. The response? "Everybody hates us and we don't care."

Dhenbhoy pretending to support Hibs 

 

 

[BawWatchin]

1 minute ago, bennett said:

Dhenbhoy pretending to support Hibs 

Don't know who this Dhenbhoy is. But at least he'd be pretending to support a club that actually exists, instead of pretending that a club they support still exists.

[williemillersmoustache]

I actually have some sympathy for the argument that the fans couldn't have done much about it. 

They could have tried. But they didn't, so it died.

Maybe there was nothing they could have done, who knows? But we do definitely know they didn't do anything and we definitely know their club died, unloved and unsupported.

[Romeo]

They could have tried. But they didn't, so it died.

Maybe there was nothing they could have done, who knows? But we do definitely know they didn't do anything and we definitely know their club died, unloved and unsupported.

They held some banners up mate.

[kennysmassiveego]

19 hours ago, wastecoatwilly said:

And yet from 2012 the group revenue has doubled from £51m to £101m

Has this not more to do with qualifying for the champions league , without any real competition at home ? 

I can imagine Lawell et al making a calculated decision to spend less and keep more due to virtually no domestic competition 

[Monkey Tennis]

52 minutes ago, The OP said:

I’m not getting into a huge circular debate. The stats clearly cast doubt on your conclusion.

The stats simply don't say what you allege though.

Instead, they support what I'm arguing.

Here they are:

2009/10 - 45,582 (the Mowbray season)

2010/11 - 49,090

2011/12 - 50,904

2012/13 - 46,917 (Rangers in the fourth tier)

2013/14 - 47,079 (Rangers in the third tier)

2014/15 - 44,585 (Rangers in the second tier)

2015/16 - 44,965 (Rangers still in the second tier)

2016/17 - 55,581 (Rangers in top flight)

2017-18 57,624

 

The Mowbray season is admittedly an outlier, but it was very unsuccessful.  Otherwise though, it's clear that Celtic fans badly missed having Rangers around.

[Romeo]

*crucification

 

 

[RedRob72]

Bit of leap to suggest your mob can read, you got me there. Fair do's. 
Although i'm pretty sure Spiers did a fuzzy felt and glitter glue version of his "financial vandalism" article so there's really no excuse.
 

We could waste time going round in circles on this all night, but it seems pointless. It has all been said before. My last shot; If there was a clear case to be made of cheating and stripping of silverware, those that run and influence the game in Scotland would have been all over the proof like a rash. There was certainly enough ‘clamour’ to support every effort to nail the club for good.
IF the governing bodies had indeed decided that Rangers had wilfully competed unfairly, then I guess an appeal would have followed but ultimately the final decision and punishment would have to be accepted if the club were to continue on the park.
I’ve watched Rangers for over 40 years and will always maintain that it was a huge shock for most of ‘us’ to come to understand exactly what had been going on within the inner sanctum at Ibrox. You can play to the gallery all you want on here Willie with your jaundiced view of the club, it matters little. That is the truth.
As for standing by and letting it happen, the club had a reported £120m Tax Bill hanging over it, who was prepared to invest at such a risk??
The tired jibes of ‘your club is dead’, ‘you let your club die’ seem to be more important for you to hang on to, as our club gradually rebuilds. If that’s a continued source of comfort to you, no worries.

[williemillersmoustache]

4 minutes ago, RedRob72 said:

 

We could waste time going round in circles on this all night, but it seems pointless. It has all been said before. My last shot; If there was a clear case to be made of cheating and stripping of silverware, those that run and influence the game in Scotland would have been all over the proof like a rash. There was certainly enough ‘clamour’ to support every effort to nail the club for good.
IF the governing bodies had indeed decided that Rangers had wilfully competed unfairly, then I guess an appeal would have followed but ultimately the final decision and punishment would have to be accepted if the club were to continue on the park.
I’ve watched Rangers for over 40 years and will always maintain that it was a huge shock for most of ‘us’ to come to understand exactly what had been going on within the inner sanctum at Ibrox. You can play to the gallery all you want on here Willie with your jaundiced view of the club, it matters little. That is the truth.
As for standing by and letting it happen, the club had a reported £120m Tax Bill hanging over it, who was prepared to invest at such a risk??
The tired jibes of ‘your club is dead’, ‘you let your club die’ seem to be more important for you to hang on to, as our club gradually rebuilds. If that’s a continued source of comfort to you, no worries.

 

Yes you do certainly seem to be, and are coming across as, wholly unbothered here.

I couldn't look myself in the eye either, if it's any consolation to you and I do sincerely hope that it is not. 

Do raise a glass to absent friends at the bells won't you?

 

 

[The_Kincardine]

7 minutes ago, williemillersmoustache said:

Yes you do certainly seem to be, and are coming across as, wholly unbothered here.

I couldn't look myself in the eye either, if it's any consolation to you and I do sincerely hope that it is not. 

Do raise a glass to absent friends at the bells won't you?

Using an image of the wreath laid at Ibrox on Saturday to commemorate those killed in 1971 in this way?  Tasteless as f**k.  You should take that post down.

[Romeo]

Using an image of the wreath laid at Ibrox on Saturday to commemorate those killed in 1971 in this way?  Tasteless as f**k.  You should take that post down.

Think that's an old picture , so cant be of the wreath from the weekend.

 

ETA. Can just see Kinky spamming the report button again..[emoji2]

[williemillersmoustache]

52 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said:

Using an image of the wreath laid at Ibrox on Saturday to commemorate those killed in 1971 in this way?  Tasteless as f**k.  You should take that post down.

I was going to use an image of Ian Durrants career, be grateful.

And f**k off kinky, there's a good chap.

[Monkey Tennis]

23 minutes ago, RedRob72 said:

 

We could waste time going round in circles on this all night, but it seems pointless. It has all been said before. My last shot; If there was a clear case to be made of cheating and stripping of silverware, those that run and influence the game in Scotland would have been all over the proof like a rash. There was certainly enough ‘clamour’ to support every effort to nail the club for good.
IF the governing bodies had indeed decided that Rangers had wilfully competed unfairly, then I guess an appeal would have followed but ultimately the final decision and punishment would have to be accepted if the club were to continue on the park.
I’ve watched Rangers for over 40 years and will always maintain that it was a huge shock for most of ‘us’ to come to understand exactly what had been going on within the inner sanctum at Ibrox. You can play to the gallery all you want on here Willie with your jaundiced view of the club, it matters little. That is the truth.
As for standing by and letting it happen, the club had a reported £120m Tax Bill hanging over it, who was prepared to invest at such a risk??
The tired jibes of ‘your club is dead’, ‘you let your club die’ seem to be more important for you to hang on to, as our club gradually rebuilds. If that’s a continued source of comfort to you, no worries.

 

Much of that is fair.  In posting the earlier article Rob, you were also admitting wrongdoing on the club's part more readily than is generally seen in Rangers fans, so fair play.

I do however, firmly believe that the path of least resistance lay in not removing the titles and that this lay behind that big injustice remaining in place.  

I've never been particularly big on the 'new club' thing myself, recognising what happened and what emerged as a messy guddle.  

[bennett]

Did Rangers beat celtic on Saturday?

Been a while since the Sevco/ers were this enraged.....