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Standard of officiating


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3 hours ago, killiekranky said:

I have seen Andrew Dallas in action from his days as a nervous, unpredictable teenager refereeing in The West of Scotland 21s League to a officious and incompetent young referee in the Juniors before graduating to complete Thunderquont in the seniors and his rise to the top remains a complete mystery to me.

 

I can remember Dallas doing Third Division/League 2 matches a few years ago and being massively out of his depth. Even back then everyone said he only got matches at that level due to his Dad. You'd expect he'd have improved to progress up the leagues but he 100% hasn't. Even watching ten minutes of the Saints - Hearts game last night you could see the effect he had on the game. Players rightly get pissed off and he can't speak to them, just does that greasy officious screaming and lecturing. 

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16 hours ago, AFCDannyFTH said:

I think it's time that the clubs came together to protest the level of officiating in the SPFL.

At the very least, coaches have to be allowed to criticise refs when it's merited - fans, players, coaches, and officials are criticised all the time - why should referees be above criticism?

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33 minutes ago, Northboy said:

From a refereeing and disciplinary standpoint football and rugby are  miles apart. People often claim rugby players have more respect for referees but I think it is more basic. In rugby, giving away a penalty in your own half is as good as handing the opposition 3 points and also in rugby being a man down is a greater disadvantage than it is in football. There's plenty of nonsense going on in a rugby match but in general players and coaches know that indiscipline can cost them.

There's also the fact that, relative to football, nobody really cares who wins a game of rugby. It's a jolly day out for a bunch of middle class ponces.

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From a refereeing and disciplinary standpoint football and rugby are  miles apart. People often claim rugby players have more respect for referees but I think it is more basic. In rugby, giving away a penalty in your own half is as good as handing the opposition 3 points and also in rugby being a man down is a greater disadvantage than it is in football. There's plenty of nonsense going on in a rugby match but in general players and coaches know that indiscipline can cost them.

On my phone, so can’t highlight your last sentence.
I’m advocating exactly the same consequences in football. If coaches know that indiscipline costs them losing a player on the pitch, surely it would be stamped out?
Straight red, 3 match ban. If 7 players are surrounding the referee, then match abandoned, also the manager is punished by not being able to field those 1st team choices in their next respective competition games?
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Rugby referees are just as capable of monumental feck ups as football ones.

Scotland seem to get an inordinate amount of honest mistakes against them. World Cup v Australia one example. Listening to Peter Wright on Rugby Sportsound is always entertaining as he, almost weekly, annihilates some pompous gonk with a whistle.

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The rugby comparison never fails to piss me off. If a rugby referee makes a terrible decision you can take your frustration into the scrum, next tackle, or ruck. That's why it's easy not to remonstrate with officials. It's not about "respect" but rather there are other outlets for frustration. In football you don't have that. You can only do it verbally. 

Another thing. You can get into a fight in rugby. You can push and pull and occasionally punch without being censured. Well, you might get censured for punching, but not for raising your hands to an opponent. You just get a stern talking to. People hold rugby up as a bastion of politeness and discipline because it's a story we're told. It's nothing of the sort. You get away with it more in rugby. It's a much more violent sport due to the allowed ferocity of contact,  but it isn't acknowledged as such because the rules allow it. 

 

 

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47 minutes ago, velo army said:

The rugby comparison never fails to piss me off. If a rugby referee makes a terrible decision you can take your frustration into the scrum, next tackle, or ruck. That's why it's easy not to remonstrate with officials. It's not about "respect" but rather there are other outlets for frustration. In football you don't have that. You can only do it verbally. 

Another thing. You can get into a fight in rugby. You can push and pull and occasionally punch without being censured. Well, you might get censured for punching, but not for raising your hands to an opponent. You just get a stern talking to. People hold rugby up as a bastion of politeness and discipline because it's a story we're told. It's nothing of the sort. You get away with it more in rugby. It's a much more violent sport due to the allowed ferocity of contact,  but it isn't acknowledged as such because the rules allow it. 

 

 

I think most folk would like to see footballers act in the same manner as rugby players do towards the ref, i.e. not surround them screaming at them.

The rest of your post doesn't change that.

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The linesman on Sunday who missed 3 Rangers players offside At Rangers second goal should be demoted and Andrew Dallas also be demoted for his horrendous refereeing the decision to award. A penalty to ST Johnstone was a disgrace. These 2 decisions have cos Hearts 3 points and maybe a lot of money. I am a Falkirk supporter.

 

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The fact that 3 Rangers players were in offside positions is completely irrelevant. The only relevant fact is that the one Rangers player who scored the goal was in an offside position. It was a bad call, albeit one which not many people spotted at the time. This sort of exaggeration of bad decisions is unhelpful. In that case, you can understand why the decision was made - there were players running in both directions and he got caught out by the movement of the defenders and attackers.

The Dallas penalty decision on Sunday, on the other hand, was a complete shocker. It wasn't a deliberate handball, and the contact with the hand was well outside the area. It is hard to understand the thought process which would lead to that decision being made - there are two officials who were reasonably well placed and should have noticed that it wasn't in the box. If either of them were in doubt then they would normally err on the side of caution and give a free-kick.

People spend too much time focusing on the first sort of decision - a split-second one where an official missed something happening, rather than the second sort where an official gives a foul for something that didn't happen. They shouldn't be given equal weight.

It's also ludicrous to say that the decisions "cost Hearts" any number of points. In both cases the match still had plenty of time to go and in both cases Hearts were being outplayed by their opponents. It's quite likely that both games might have finished in similar scorelines regardless.

Edited by craigkillie
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3 hours ago, DA Baracus said:

I think most folk would like to see footballers act in the same manner as rugby players do towards the ref, i.e. not surround them screaming at them.

The rest of your post doesn't change that.

I've no doubt that most people would like to see that and yes, my post doesn't change the fact that these same people will be immune to reason, logic and context. 

I think I offered a decent argument as to why rugby players do that and why it's a little unreasonable to expect the same of footballers given they do not have the same opportunities for physical catharsis as their egg-pursuing brethren.

Some may disagree, some may also choose to hold onto their opinions for dear life. Can do nowt about it.

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I can't think of a single sport that has the players acting (regularly) with such open disrespect towards officials, whether physical contact sports or not. Football is not boxing or MMA, usually, and despite occasional 'afters' those boys contain themselves. Other team ballsports are more grown up, although admittedly few sports have the crowd dynamic that football does. Tennis is the only sport that I can think of where you sometimes see back-chat to the ref and look at how they clamp down on that. I've followed (ice) hockey for many years and despite the physicality, refs are respected. 

Given that I've found myself doing it, a bit, playing football, I think it's a cultural problem probably unique to football globally. It's like playing this game you've got a license to be a dick to the guy in the middle. 

All that said, last night the Saints penalty wasn't one but the  yellow card in the box was. It might be natural justice, but it's not right. And Dallas should never get near a senior game again. 

Edited by Valentino Bolognese
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I played shinty for many years, ref had the option that if you swore out loud, even to yourself , he could send you off for foul language. Don’t think I ever saw a shinty ref being approached by anyone other than the captain ever.

Might be different now....

 

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On 12/6/2018 at 00:44, paddymcp said:

Personally I love the theatrics and seethe a poor referee decision brings to Scottish football. 

Bad decisions happen in every game in every country on any day. Scottish football fans just love a good moan. 

 

More please.

nearly 40 years of watching football and no wonder you love the theatrics as celtic are more often than not rewarded after a terrible decision is made. 

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14 hours ago, craigkillie said:

It's also ludicrous to say that the decisions "cost Hearts" any number of points. In both cases the match still had plenty of time to go and in both cases Hearts were being outplayed by their opponents. It's quite likely that both games might have finished in similar scorelines regardless.

It's also ludicrous to suggest that decisions may NOT cost a team a victory or a draw.

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1 hour ago, jamtart1972 said:

It's also ludicrous to suggest that decisions may NOT cost a team a victory or a draw.

They MAY cost a team, but there’s no way that you can say it absolutely does, unless it’s the last action of a game. 

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At the very least, coaches have to be allowed to criticise refs when it's merited - fans, players, coaches, and officials are criticised all the time - why should referees be above criticism?
I wonder how players and managers would feel if referees were allowed to criticise them.

"Well Andrew, what did you make of Rangers today?"

"Well Chick, I thought a diamond midfield was a mistake and cost them in the wide areas, and the boy Morelos sold the jerseys when he skied an easy volley near the end.

As for the dive, actions like that cost referees their jobs."
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2 hours ago, GordonS said:

"Well Chick, I thought a diamond midfield was a mistake and cost them in the wide areas, and the boy Morelos sold the jerseys when he skied an easy volley near the end.

A referee would/could never say such a thing - Morelos still on the field near the end?

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On 06/12/2018 at 09:17, Northboy said:

You have a good point about current refereeing performance but where exactly do you think the SPFL will bring in these referees from and why would the be any better than what we already have?

I'd happily see the SPFL bring in foreign referees. The guys that came in when our refs went on strike were brilliant. 

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Scottish refs almost to a man are obsessed with not missing something. They seem to believe that blowing for a free-kick or penalty no matter how much of the incident they saw, is better than admitting that they missed it or were not quite sure what happened (and hence didn't give anything). its an utterly bizarre stance. 

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