Standard of officiating

[wastecoatwilly]

1 minute ago, DA Baracus said:

Do you mean it would increase the cost of season tickets?

Might be a fair point.

If the clubs want it and the fans want it, it will happen I'm sure the fans will have to play their part.

[DA Baracus]

Just now, wastecoatwilly said:

If the clubs want it and the fans want it, it will happen I'm sure the fans will have to play their part.

Probably true.

[7-2]

1 minute ago, wastecoatwilly said:

If the clubs want it and the fans want it, it will happen I'm sure the fans will have to play their part.

You think clubs listen to fans? Awww, that's sweet.

[wastecoatwilly]

4 minutes ago, 7-2 said:

You think clubs listen to fans? Awww, that's sweet.

Sometimes but improving the game here is the bottom line is it worth it thou?

[Menzel]

Andrew Dallas is so bad that the Czech press have come out with this article (he's refereeing Slavia Prague in Europe this week)

Slavia already Know the Official -  Fans Complain he is Terrible and the Absolute Worst Referee

[Dee Man]

1 hour ago, Menzel said:

Andrew Dallas is so bad that the Czech press have come out with this article (he's refereeing Slavia Prague in Europe this week)

Slavia already Know the Official -  Fans Complain he is Terrible and the Absolute Worst Referee

"Čtvrteční domácí zápas fotbalistů pražské Slavie v Evropské lize proti Zenitu Petrohrad bude pískat skotský sudí Andrew Dallas."

Couldn't agree more. 

 

[Guest JTS98]

I've been living outside Scotland and watching football regularly in various countries for more than a decade now. Referees everywhere are rubbish.

Even in the biggest leagues you get absolute howlers and referees who can't control a game in general. Scotland isn't really out of step with the rest of the world in this regard.

The K-League uses VAR. It slows down games massively and, as others have said, it's only as good as the refs using it. They still get plenty wrong.

Honestly, I wouldn't bother with it.

[7-2]

1 minute ago, JTS98 said:

I've been living outside Scotland and watching football regularly in various countries for more than a decade now. Referees everywhere are rubbish.

Even in the biggest leagues you get absolute howlers and referees who can't control a game in general. Scotland isn't really out of step with the rest of the world in this regard.

The K-League uses VAR. It slows down games massively and, as others have said, it's only as good as the refs using it. They still get plenty wrong.

Honestly, I wouldn't bother with it.

As long as humans are involved in something  there will be mistakes made. This whole forensic examination of refs and the expectation of perfection every single time is basically down to tv and other media outlets having too much time on their hands.

[A96]

21 hours ago, DA Baracus said:

This is the rule and has been for years

Well , OK , but it would be a modification to that rule eg to make a distiction between a case of handball in the penalty area that was in the ref's opinion , clearly and obviously deliberate , and other cases of handball which the ref felt was accidental or could not be deemed to be clearly and obviously deliberate but had resulted in an advantage to the defending team and a concomitant disadvantage to the attacking team.

I reckon a fair amount of the controversial decisions relate to handballs in the box , and part of the problem is that a penalty kick seems to be an unduly harsh punishment for the "crime" involved.  Giving the refs the option to award an indirect free-kick would seem to me to be a fairer punishment.

[Aim Here]

20 minutes ago, A96 said:

Well , OK , but it would be a modification to that rule eg to make a distiction between a case of handball in the penalty area that was in the ref's opinion , clearly and obviously deliberate , and other cases of handball which the ref felt was accidental or could not be deemed to be clearly and obviously deliberate but had resulted in an advantage to the defending team and a concomitant disadvantage to the attacking team.

I reckon a fair amount of the controversial decisions relate to handballs in the box , and part of the problem is that a penalty kick seems to be an unduly harsh punishment for the "crime" involved.  Giving the refs the option to award an indirect free-kick would seem to me to be a fairer punishment.

Uh, accidental handball isn't an offence now. Right now, it's not punished by a penalty kick, the current law of the game is that the ball remains in play. What you want is to give the ref more leeway to give free kicks inside the penalty area based on what he thinks is going on in the player's mind, and you think this is going to magically *reduce* controversial refereeing decisions?

Edit: glad to see the ongoing, liberal use of the word 'concomitant', by the way!

[WeeMentalDavie]

While listening to Sportsound tonight, I was thinking of the teams in the top division that have been dealt major problems by referees this season. Not for one second do,I think that referees in our game are biased, but do feel that they must be swayed by crowd pressure. So off the top of my head I can think of the following teams, some more than once, that have had awful decisions made against them. Rangers, Kilmarnock, Hearts, Aberdeen, Hibs, Motherwell and Dundee. Is this maybe the reason that Celtic are top of the league? I can’t remember a single occasion this season when they have been on the end of a potentially result changing decision.

I know/hope you're not being fully serious but off the top of my head I can think of Menga headbutting Christie in the first half away at Livi and Benkovic's disallowed goal at Motherwell as result changing decisions. Both made by Kevin Clancy incidentally

[Guest Moomintroll]

"Čtvrteční domácí zápas fotbalistů pražské Slavie v Evropské lize proti Zenitu Petrohrad bude pískat skotský sudí Andrew Dallas."
Couldn't agree more. 
 

Makes more sense to me than a lot of his decisions tbf.

[Florentine_Pogen]

"Čtvrteční domácí zápas fotbalistů pražské Slavie v Evropské lize proti Zenitu Petrohrad bude pískat skotský sudí Andrew Dallas."
 

According to Google translate .........
“Only in a small backward country like Scotland would it be possible to find an odious little b*****d such as Andrew Dallas in such a lofty position within the refereeing fraternity. That’s what cronyism and nepotism does for you.”

Well said you Czechos. [emoji122][emoji122][emoji122]

[HibeeJibee]

Simply looking at costs - this would need the technology rights, perhaps extra cameras at some games, real-time editing equipment and staff at all games (presumably all 6 are not done onsite live currently?), and the extra match officials. Big screens at all stadiums, too, so fans know what's happening?

Expense would surely run into millions.


EDIT: We've got this Celtic chap on here saying he'd put up £4M to £6M per season as a price and pay for it (or only some of it?) with season tickets.

That's from £18,000 to £27,000 per game. So would we be increasing all tickets £2 across the board... coming on for 10% rise, certainly in case of STs... to pay for this?

If that's unfair as OF fans would be paying half of it, the impact on smaller clubs would be severe. It would be £4.50 to £6.75 per ticket at somewhere like St Johnstone.

[Ginaro]

On 10/12/2018 at 21:47, weegienative said:

If introduced in Scotland I can see controversy arising from certain incidents being reviewed and others not, feeding the conspiracy theories.

Hopefully the SFA can copy the Dutch FA and post videos like this of controversial decisions to show why things are reviewed or not.

The Italians also had their head of VAR on a football TV show and the World Cup had a media briefing where Collina went through some VAR incidents:

4 hours ago, HibeeJibee said:

Simply looking at costs - this would need the technology rights, perhaps extra cameras at some games, real-time editing equipment and staff at all games (presumably all 6 are not done onsite live currently?), and the extra match officials. Big screens at all stadiums, too, so fans know what's happening?

Expense would surely run into millions.

EDIT: We've got this Celtic chap on here saying he'd put up £4M to £6M per season as a price and pay for it (or only some of it?) with season tickets.

One article said £5,000 https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/45567928 and another £10,000 https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/45535390 so £2.28m going by the latter for the 38 games.

I think the live feeds exist currently as Sportscene/sound mention watching them on a Saturday, though extra cameras would be needed (even it's just extra static cameras for offsides) plus the staff and extra refs. Big screens would be nice to have but aren't critical (I think some English clubs don't have them) - refs can just make some clear signals!

[Guest JTS98]

10 hours ago, A96 said:

Well , OK , but it would be a modification to that rule eg to make a distiction between a case of handball in the penalty area that was in the ref's opinion , clearly and obviously deliberate , and other cases of handball which the ref felt was accidental or could not be deemed to be clearly and obviously deliberate but had resulted in an advantage to the defending team and a concomitant disadvantage to the attacking team.

I reckon a fair amount of the controversial decisions relate to handballs in the box , and part of the problem is that a penalty kick seems to be an unduly harsh punishment for the "crime" involved.  Giving the refs the option to award an indirect free-kick would seem to me to be a fairer punishment.

I'd actually be quite happy with this.

I was at a K-League game at the weekend where the referee gave three handballs, all outside the box, yet never booked anybody. One of them was clearly deliberate and should have been a booking, but the other two were accidental. Yet nobody complained.

I think most people would be happy with the rule as you've outlined. An advantage gained using the arm outside the box, accidental or not, would bean indirect free kick with no booking. But in the penalty area only deliberate handball is punished and always with a booking. That would prevent the ludicrousness of attackers just pelting the ball into the box aiming for an arm, while removing an area of judgement from handball calls in most of the pitch.

I'm loathe to punish players for accidental offences, but if it simplifies the nonsense we get around handball, I'd be prepared to take it.

I'd be for it. Something certainly needs changed about handball, as at the moment it's far too inconsistent despite the rules being relatively straightforward.

[Ginaro]

8 hours ago, JTS98 said:

I was at a K-League game at the weekend where the referee gave three handballs, all outside the box, yet never booked anybody. One of them was clearly deliberate and should have been a booking, but the other two were accidental. Yet nobody complained.

Deliberate handball (the only type of handball that can be penalised) is not an automatic yellow card.

[Muzza81]

20 hours ago, 7-2 said:

As long as humans are involved in something  there will be mistakes made. This whole forensic examination of refs and the expectation of perfection every single time is basically down to tv and other media outlets having too much time on their hands.

This is bang on. Referees are being completely over scrutinised and that’s where the perception that the are getting worse comes from. 

[Guest JTS98]

2 hours ago, Ginaro said:

Deliberate handball (the only type of handball that can be penalised) is not an automatic yellow card.

My goodness, you're quite right.

[A96]

On ‎11‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 16:50, Aim Here said:

Uh, accidental handball isn't an offence now. Right now, it's not punished by a penalty kick, the current law of the game is that the ball remains in play. What you want is to give the ref more leeway to give free kicks inside the penalty area based on what he thinks is going on in the player's mind, and you think this is going to magically *reduce* controversial refereeing decisions?

Edit: glad to see the ongoing, liberal use of the word 'concomitant', by the way!

 Given that the rules state that deliberate handball is an offence , the refs are already expected to make a decision based on what they think is going on in the player's mind.  But  I don't believe for a minute that refs only award free-kicks for handballs (or more precisely arm-balls) that they think are deliberate.  Take the penalty awarded against Dominic Ball in the recent League Cup final , for instance.  I doubt that Dallas could reasonably have thought that there was any deliberate intention by Ball to use his arm to stop the ball getting past him.

I think if he had the option of awarding an indirect free-kick he'd have taken it.......(aye , the option , that is....nae the free-kick.....although , come to think of it , I widna put that past him either)

And yes , I do think that the overall controversy surrounding contentious decisions about penalties for handball  either being given or not given would be reduced. Obviously there would still be loads of borderline cases where the ref could reasonably go with either of the options I've suggested , so there would still be plenty scope for debate and whataboutery.